Government Operations Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm running out of time and I'd like to ask you another question.

Can you tell us more about the conflict of interest?

[Jan Simpson]

If you're sitting on the board of directors of Canada Post and also on the board of directors of Purolator, it's a conflict, because it's the exact same business. When I joined Canada Post, I could not work for, say, Shoppers Drug Mart as a part-time job. Here, you have intellectual knowledge of the work happening at Canada Post and then you're bringing it to Purolator as well.

We did bring it up as well with Mr. Steven MacKinnon, the former minister of labour, when we first heard about this. For us, this is a problem, because the work that we're losing is going to Purolator, and then we see Canada Post taking a loss. Instead of coming to the table and bargaining good collective agreements that bring stability to the entire country, they're moving work over there at a 65% discount rate. Also, large-volume mails are being given a 45% discount rate as well, so for us, they need to come to the bargaining table and bargain collective agreements that are actually ratifiable. That would allow us to be able to bring the work back to Canada Post, bring stability to all the people across this country and to the workers, and help to grow the post office as well.

There are also people who have left Canada Post and have left SCI, a subsidiary of Canada Post that they sold not too long ago, who also sit on the board of directors of Purolator, so you have a lot of people there who know Canada Post's intellectual workings and their intellectual properties, and here they are sitting on the board of a direct competitor company and doing this work.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm flabbergasted. I really didn't know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Mr. Gill is next.

[Harb Gill, Conservative, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Mr. Jones, let's start with the basics. Are Canadians in rural and smaller communities still getting a reliable postal service, or have the standards slipped?

[Dwayne Jones]

I would say that rural Canadians have come to love and appreciate the postal service they've received and stand behind it. I think that feeds in to why the Canada Post name is as strong as it is today, so I would say that rural Canadians are receiving good service, reliable service.

In terms of the expectation going forward and how that's going to be affected, I think Canadians would need to be able to feed into the proposed change. If a reduced model was going to be looked at again, how would that affect the members of the community? If you have a community that is primarily seniors, having them travel any distance to pick up items is problematic, but I think that overall, they stand behind Canada Post.

[Harb Gill, Conservative, Windsor West, ON]

With the changes you're talking about, does Canada Post generally consult with postmasters or do you just find out after the decision has been made?

[Dwayne Jones]

In the communities themselves, when it comes to the consultation process, most of the time it's the union that's consulting with the corporation. The amount of input they take directly from the employees is minimal. When it comes to their public outreach to the community, it seems like it's a tailored approach. We would like to see that expanded more to receive from a broader number of residents within that community.

[Harb Gill, Conservative, Windsor West, ON]

With respect to how Canada Post has a legal duty to serve every Canadian, from your perspective is that mandate still being honoured, or it is being quietly watered down?

[Dwayne Jones]

There may be early signs of erosion to it, but especially in the direction.... I'm going to go back to when there was no moratorium in place. We saw 1,500 communities lose their post office.

That is why one of the recommendations we're recommending is that the 45-day window be extended to 100 days and to enforce the full moratorium until those consultations have taken place. We don't know what the ramifications would be to future communities if there were no safeguards or established parameters.

[Harb Gill, Conservative, Windsor West, ON]

With respect to modernization, that's been discussed here quite a bit. We all agree that Canada Post must modernize, but where's the line between modernization and abandoning your core public service mission?

[Dwayne Jones]

I think it's a tight balance and a bit of a tightrope walk.

Again, I'm going to reiterate the importance of hearing from the community, because in some areas you may find that literally on-minute tracking a parcel is the most crucial for that community, whereas in others it's not so much the online tracking that's the pinnacle, but the flexibility in the hours when they are able to go and pick up items. This is where allowing a bit of the flexibility to come from the members of the community to speak to that, I think, is where Canada Post can zero in and see the most bang for their buck.

[Harb Gill, Conservative, Windsor West, ON]

Very good.

Ms. McEwen, you studied the contracts and legislation. What are the legal obligations that Canada Post has in that it needs to maintain equitable service across this country? Are those being met?

[Alison McEwen]

I think that's an interesting question, and I think we all have to remember the universal service obligation.

I do have concerns that, as Mr. Jones has alluded to, before the moratorium, 1,500 communities lost their post office. Even post-moratorium, 500 rural offices have closed, just through a variety of ways. I think we have to be very mindful about what this means for Canada Post's legal obligations and what it means for rural Canadians.

I think that's part of what CPAA is saying. There is not going to be one size that fits all. We can't say it's any office “this big or over”. We can't say that any community “this big or over” is now urban. We can't say it's anyone who has a post office within 50 kilometres.

You really have to look at these communities, because the 3,000 CPAA offices are very different.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid I have to cut you off there, because we're past our time.

Ms. Rochefort, please. You have five minutes.

[Pauline Rochefort, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My riding is Nipissing—Timiskaming. My community is a mix of urban and rural and, certainly, the post office is very important. Years ago, my family had the first post office in our community.

I feel that in my community, as I mentioned in the last committee meeting, they understand that there's a need for change, but it's certainly a vital service. We need to protect it, and we need to be able to move forward. My questions are basically, to some extent, about how we move forward.

From a rural perspective, Mr. Jones, I'm interested in understanding the accommodation services and how they would work in rural Canada. We do have a fairly senior population. I understand as well that Canada Post will potentially be looking at ways to examine and potentially re-examine that service as needed, if required.

How would you see it? How would you see accommodation services functioning in rural Canada?

[Dwayne Jones]

I think the biggest step would be the initial one, and that's where, if there's an openness from the corporation to embrace what the community has to stay, it will go a long way to helping them apply that in the field.

Hearing from the communities what's most crucial and important for them would be the biggest step forward. Again, if they try to take a one-stop shop template and apply it to all rural areas, we're going to be facing the same hurdles we're facing today. We know it's not a proven track record, and we need to adjust and accommodate.

I think, for allowing the members in rural Canada.... Again, I'll go back to the importance of online tracking. That might not be their biggest push; staying connected through, say, three-day delivery in that area may be more important to them than being able to track the parcel.

Trying to fit those who aren't technological in their thinking into a mould that's going to have to be run that way is problematic. Again, we still have members who come in and buy a single stamp because that's their daily routine, and they're going to continue that until they can't. It's thriving in that area and in that community. They need to recognize that and build on it.

[Pauline Rochefort, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you very much.

Madam Simpson, I was looking forward to meeting you, because I view you as Wonder Woman.

You have a very large organization and the views are different across the country. How do you manage that?

[Jan Simpson]

Thank you very much.

As a union, we have eight regions across the country, and everybody's reality is very important to us. We have a national executive board. We meet, have conversations and consult on what the members and the Canadian public feel across the country.

We have our Delivering Community Power campaign, which took us into all communities across this country and allowed us to hear what Canadian citizens want their post office to look like. Nobody asked us to cut door-to-door delivery. People actually want increased service.

Canada Post needs to start delivering more parcels, and for us, bringing the parcel to the door is the model our competitors are using. By eliminating door-to-door delivery and going to community mailboxes, you're taking away your competitive advantage and, therefore, pushing away profits that Canada Post could actually have.

[Pauline Rochefort, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

By whom is Purolator owned?

[Jan Simpson]

Canada Post owns over 91% of it, and the government also owns part of it.

[Pauline Rochefort, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you for that precision.

Moving forward, it seems to be, obviously, that we all see the disconnect between the union's perspective and that of Canada Post. Does the union see a way forward, and if so, how do you see it moving forward?

[Jan Simpson]

We're looking forward to going back to the table. I've spoken to Mr. Ettinger. We're going to go back to the table and try to bargain ratifiable collective agreements.

The government has intervened a lot in this round of bargaining, and it has hindered our bargaining. You delayed our bargaining and created more instability for the Canadian public in taking away our right to strike, having the commission and then, also, having the forced vote. That was lost, but we were successful because 70% of our members said the collective agreements that were being put forward to them were not ratifiable.

I see the union and Canada Post working together by coming back to the table and bargaining ratifiable collective agreements, as well as by having true consultation with the Canadian public about how they see their public post office moving forward to bring back good services and expand services at Canada Post to bring in revenue, right now, for the company.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm speechless. I find that the system is not working as far as governance is concerned.

As business people, I know that in the world of business, conflicts of interest must be disclosed and resolved.

How can Canada Post board members sit around the same bargaining table with board members of a competitor? Some of them could have privileged information.

It has been said that Canada Post mail delivery is in a deficit, but I'd like to see the numbers. In contrast, Purolator is raking in big profit. And I've just learned that they all sit around the same table. I think that even Mr. Hudon is there too.

That is something that needs to be demystified. There are no consultations, and there is a relentless effort to encroach on provincial jurisdiction. As I said earlier, there are 41 million Canadians and 17 million postal addresses. Canada Post is a treasure.

However, there are suggestions to emulate the German model. Postal services will be contracted out and they will become competitive. However, it's clear that the Basse‑Côte‑Nord and other far off areas like the Îles de la Madeleine would no longer have delivery service because these areas are only served by Canada Post.

Honestly, the only thing I understand is that the status quo cannot be maintained. Are you ready to dismiss the Kaplan report? Surely there must be some worthwhile stuff in that report.

For the purposes of the report that the committee will prepare, I'd like you to tell us what measures should be implemented and what steps should be taken to make our model sustainable.