Government Operations Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I look forward to getting that information. In fact, it will show us that it's not 360,000 public servants in total, but perhaps 19,000 public servants at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

There is internal expertise. I think we have to lose the reflex to contract everything out. I look forward to seeing how staffing and task assignment will be organized.

I await your documents, Mr. Ali.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Madam Gaudreau.

We have Mrs. Block, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I only have a couple of questions left. One is for both ministers.

Mr. Lightbound, this is with respect to my colleague's question in regard to how you voted in the House when the Conservatives called for the return of the money that was defrauded from Canadians by ArriveCAN. You voted against that motion. In your response to my colleague, you said that PSPC is adopting all the AG recommendations, and as such, there are rules to make sure there's better transparency.

Are you suggesting that because there will be better rules for transparency you will be more committed to ensuring that Canadians will get value for their money?

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

No. It's an ongoing commitment to make sure that our service and our procurements are getting the best value for Canadians and that the process is transparent and competitive.

What I'm saying is that, over time, we have implemented the recommendations from the many reports, as you know. I'm not just talking about those from the Auditor General of Canada, but also those from the ombud. They have improved data collection, increased transparency and ensured that our client departments are following the rules—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to interrupt you, Minister. This isn't about improving data. This is about how you voted in the House when parliamentarians were called on to support a motion to recoup money that had been taken from Canadians by GC Strategies. You voted against that motion.

Have you some new-found commitment to ensure that there will be value for money spent by the Government of Canada?

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

The commitment is the same.

Mrs. Block, you're an experienced parliamentarian. You know very well that these motions in the House are very often used to play partisan political games. However, actions speak louder than words.

In this case, we took action by suing GC Strategies. We also sued other suppliers responsible for malfeasance and fraudulent billing. As the deputy minister mentioned earlier, we recovered $4.1 million of the $4.5 million that had been identified. We will never hesitate to hold bad actors accountable and take them to court.

I guarantee you that.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

You pursued them because the House compelled you to. That's why.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

This litigation was ongoing long before the motion you are referring to. The litigation preceded the motion.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'm now going to ask a question of Mr. Ali.

Mr. Ali, the TBS paid KPMG $700,000 for advice on how to cut consultants.

Why are you spending $6 billion more?

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton—Chinguacousy Park, ON]

Through you, Mr. Chair, respectfully, I don't think you have the correct information. This was not TBS.

I will ask my deputy to shed some light on this, please, to educate my colleague.

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly. There was one department that I'm aware of that did indeed engage a consulting firm for advice on how to reduce budgets. It was not Treasury Board Secretariat, as the minister said.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Can you tell us who that was?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm going from memory, and I believe it was Natural Resources Canada a few years ago. We should confirm that, though.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'm pretty sure it was former minister Anand who announced that they had hired consultants to provide advice on how to cut external consulting fees.

[Bill Matthews]

I can double-check that, Mr. Chair.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I would appreciate if you could provide that information.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Watchorn, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to let you know that I will be sharing my time with Ms. Khalid.

As you know, in the next few days, there will be two special occasions. First comes Halloween. Then comes Remembrance Day.

I personally will have the pleasure of going out and selling poppies with members of Morin-Heights branch 171 of the Royal Canadian Legion. I have always done so as mayor and I will continue to do so as a member of Parliament.

Our colleague from Laurentides—Labelle asked you a question about veterans. I would like you to assure them that we will be there for them in the coming years.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

We have a solemn obligation to always respect veterans' commitment to our country. Our government also takes its commitment to veterans very seriously.

More broadly, I would add that, on November 4, we will be called upon to vote on a budget granting a considerable pay raise to Canadian Armed Forces personnel and those who sign up. I sincerely hope that all our colleagues in the House will support the pay raise for the men and women who enlist in the forces to serve their country.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

My last question will be for Minister Ali.

The Conservative leader has really criticized the public service's diversity, equity and inclusion policies. Then, on the flip side, we've also heard from the public service that the policies are not strong enough to protect them in the work they do. There are questions now, as the Conservative leader is suggesting, that these policies are undermining merit-based hiring and promotion. Then, on the flip side, we're hearing a completely different story from the public service.

How do you respond to that concern, Minister, and how does the Treasury Board balance DEI priorities while ensuring that it is all merit based?

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton—Chinguacousy Park, ON]

This is a really important question because I believe that diversity and inclusion are strengths of the Canadian fabric. You cannot exclude them from our identity as Canadians. I do not agree with the Leader of the Opposition on this narrative.

Canada's new government is working to build a federal public service that sees difference as our strength. We know that a diverse public service can better meet the needs of Canadians. While Conservatives are trying to divide Canadians, we stay focused on what matters most for Canadians. Diversity is our strength, and we have rules in place in the Treasury Board to have equal opportunities for everyone.

I can ask my deputy to add more on this, please.

[Bill Matthews]

Do I have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have one minute and 18 seconds, Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews]

As my colleague, Francis, has already said, hiring is run by the Public Service Commission, but, when you're looking at merit criteria, there is a way to balance the merit criteria as well as ensure that the public service that we have reflects Canada.

Francis, do you want to add anything?