Evidence of meeting #14 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bédard.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
I don't have that information now.
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
It will be for the agency to provide to the Treasury Board when it's ready to come and access that funding.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
You sign the cheque, but you can't give us that information.
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm speaking only about the funding that was just announced in the budget.
Conservative
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
I'll start by asking, for the purposes of our constituents who are listening in on this committee today, what's the difference between an agency and a department? Why does it matter?
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question. It's a very good question.
What I would say about the special operating agencies that have been established—as I noted, there are over a dozen in existence today; the earliest are from the early nineties—is that they are units within existing departments. It's relatively straightforward to stand them up in that regard. They are subject to all of the same requirements and structures that a department would be.
They can, as I noted, be given special authorities. I would say that most of the SOAs that we've looked at are service-oriented and have a really discrete mandate. Some can be quite large, like the Canadian Coast Guard, or they can be very small.
As I said, they don't require legislation to establish. They are subject to all the same rules and requirements as departments. They can perform a discrete function and have their own unique footprint.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
What I'm hearing you say is that a lot more discretion is allowed in agencies versus departments.
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Not necessarily. They could seek those authorities should they wish and should those be tools.... I am speaking only about authorities that rest with the Treasury Board, but there are other authorities or delegations that exist even within a department and that may or may not be given to those special operating agencies.
Authorities that rest with the minister could be delegated to the special operating agencies as well. That would depend on the specific mandate, I would say, of those agencies.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
On this specific agency we are talking about, can you outline for us what discretions are allowed for them? What decisions are they able to make on their own as an agency, without the executive branch filling in?
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Do you want to speak to that, Emilio?
Executive Director, Investment Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Again, I would just say that the Defence Investment Agency is an entity within Public Services and Procurement Canada, which, in setting up that agency, will need to determine to what extent the existing processes and controls within the department extend to it or what internal flexibilities they're providing. I think they would be best placed to elaborate on how that will be managed.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Ms. McClymont, if I can please ask you, how does an agency like this interact with international obligations that we have with NATO, for example, and with other multilateral organizations? How do they fulfill the role Canada needs to fulfill with these obligations?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I would love to try to answer that, but I'm the appointments person. I'd love to give you my own personal view, but that would probably be bad. I don’t know.
Can you take it, Dominique?
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you.
I’ll try as well. I mean, I can’t speak to the specific interactions with NATO itself, but certainly in terms of the objective of meeting the spending target, this is going to be a really important tool in terms of achieving that objective, with a view to streamlining the approach to procurement and expediting it, certainly in the amounts that are being talked about, to achieve the 2% and ultimately the 5% target.
The pace of procurement, as I think is well understood.... In some cases, it can take a really long time. As I noted, the objective or the driver, in part, for this organization is to ensure that it can expedite and accelerate the process with a view to achieving or meeting those international commitments, including the NATO target.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
When we talk about meeting those commitments, does the creation of the agency and the amount of money spent in the creation of the agency count toward that obligation?
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
That's a good question. I don’t know if Emilio knows the answer, but that may be one we have to get back to you on.
Executive Director, Investment Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I don’t know the answer as to whether or not this organization is contributing to the 5%. I know that there is an exercise to assess Canada’s contributions to its NATO targets, with organizations bringing forward the work they do in support of defence, but I don’t know specifically about this organization and how it contributes.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
We will finish with Ms. Gaudreau for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Actually, I'd like to ask another question, Mr. Chair.
I have some serious concerns and I need some reassurance.
How can it possibly be said that there are no overlapping roles when it comes to procedures, management decisions and the chain of command?
Perhaps I hadn't realized it, but we're talking about four organizations that can make simultaneous decisions. There is National Defence, Treasury Board, Public Services and Procurement Canada, and the Privy Council Office.
Who will be accountable for any failures?
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
The Defence Investment Agency would be accountable. We're trying to consolidate authorities to have fewer decision-making points in the procurement process.
This is a new agency and so duplication of roles will be an issue on their end and on our end. We want to eliminate existing duplication.
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I do have one wish, Mr. Chair.
We have a rare opportunity to have a glimpse into the future. We usually find out what worked or congratulate people when things go well after the fact. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen here.
I'd really like us to have an opportunity to follow up the various stages upfront. We could look into the issue of governance. Maybe in six months, witnesses will have answers to the questions we've asked them.
Mr. Chair, we need to keep a close eye on the situation because public dollars are involved.
People on the ground think it's just another scenario that will be difficult to track and that ultimately it won't go far.
If we want to prove otherwise, then I think we should ask the witnesses to come back in due course and we can ask them to provide additional information.
Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think Public Services and Procurement Canada and the Defence Procurement Agency will be in a better position to answer your questions.