Evidence of meeting #17 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Jennings  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Martel  Director General, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry
Tanton  Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry
Bédard  Interim Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel
Tessier  Director General, Industry Sector, Department of Industry

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. We are in session.

Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c), the committee is undertaking its study of the response from the government to the motion for the production of papers adopted on Monday, October 20, 2025, about contracts with Stellantis.

We are having some technical difficulties getting our Stellantis witness online, but as we try to work out the IT, we'll start with the opening statement.

Everyone has received the electronic copy and the paper copies, which are numbered and have to be returned to the clerk at the end of the meeting. Thank you very much.

We'll turn the floor over to Mr. Jennings for five minutes for an opening statement. Hopefully, we'll have Stellantis on by the time his statement is finished.

The floor is yours, Mr. Jennings. Please go ahead.

Philip Jennings Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Thank you, Chair.

Chair, I do appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss matters related to the agreements between the Government of Canada and Stellantis pertaining to the Brampton assembly plant.

The committee's main point of interest appears to be how we have proposed to address your request for copies of the agreements, so I will focus my remarks on that issue specifically.

Let me begin by acknowledging the vital role the committee has played in informing, shaping, and advancing the effective functioning of government operations.

The committee's oversight is essential to maintaining public confidence and ensuring accountability within our institutions. We're grateful for these efforts and respect the need to maintain transparency when providing information to the committee.

When addressing matters of transparency and the disclosure of information related to agreements between the government and third parties, it is also important to recognize the commercially confidential nature of some of the information contained in these agreements. The public release of commercially confidential information can cause significant damage.

The automotive industry is highly competitive, and the information provided to governments when participating in government programming is shared with the understanding that it will be protected. This is equally the case in the aerospace sector, the artificial intelligence sector and other knowledge-based sectors in the economy.

This trust is critical to facilitating the sharing of information for us to be able to do due diligence on the information, and a breakdown in that trust undermines the government's ability to position itself as a partner in future agreements. Ultimately, trust between parties is key to ensuring that government funding drives innovation and competitiveness and is effective in growing the Canadian economy.

With this in mind, we are proposing to provide the committee with the contribution agreement for review, while keeping to a minimum the redactions meant to protect confidential business information. The redacting is less extensive than what the Access to Information Act allows. We are also proposing that the committee meet in camera to review the document.

I will note that this proposed approach mirrors how we have addressed similar requests by parliamentary committees in the past and facilitated the timely sharing of information with those committees. This approach also respects the agreements between Canada and Stellantis, one where we equally expect Stellantis to respect all of its terms.

Given the sensitive nature of the documents and my desire to be as transparent as possible while also being compliant with the department's contractual obligations, I would respectfully ask that the committee move in camera to ask any detailed, specific questions regarding the document provided.

I am confident that Parliament will appreciate the confidential nature of certain commercial information and will consider a solution that provides relevant information to support discussion and informed decision-making while protecting elements that could harm the Canadian economy.

Doing otherwise could undermine investment attraction and, in turn, jeopardize job creation and economic growth in Canada.

Thank you, Chair. I look forward to the questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Jennings.

Colleagues, I apologize. I forgot that, of course, Mr. Bédard and Ms. Gauthier are with us from the parliamentary law clerk's office. They're here to provide advice, but if you have any specific questions for them, please feel free to address them directly. It can come out of your usual five- or six-minute time.

We'll start with Mr. Seeback for six minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

In your statement, you just said that you're trying to redact commercially sensitive information, which I understand. What I do find—

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm sorry, but there's a point order. I'll stop the clock.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Were there any other opening remarks?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

They haven't signed on yet. We're waiting for them to sign on. There are IT issues.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you. I appreciate that.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Go ahead Mr. Seeback.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you very much.

I respect that you're trying to make sure that commercially sensitive information isn't available. What I have found when I've reviewed this agreement, and in fact, when I've reviewed other publicly available documents, like SIF agreement 810-819553, which is related to the agreements that we're talking about today, the redactions are not consistent. I want to understand, if you're saying it's commercially sensitive and that's the basis for the redactions, why is there a lack of consistency between the redactions in the documents?

For example, in SIF agreement 810-819553, you redacted the costs of the funding agreement. In the SIF agreement that we're talking about here, 813-816251, the dollar amounts, in fact, aren't redacted. The dollar amounts of the other agreement are in the document. Amendment number two of SIF 813-816251 puts in the full amount of the $15-billion contribution. It's not redacted in this document, but it's redacted in another.

Can you explain that inconsistency?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Philip Jennings

I don't have the other agreement that you're referring to with me. However, what I can say is that when we do get a request for documents, from committees in any case, we always approach the companies at the end of the day to make sure we actually have a process in terms of understanding what they feel is commercially confidential and could be harmful to their competitive position. We review that with the companies to make sure that, in our assessment, we also feel there is some legitimacy to it being commercially confidential.

In this case, as I've outlined in the letter to the committee, we feel that the information that is redacted is legitimately commercially confidential. It's about IP strategies. It's about investments in R and D, investments in capex, which could actually give some sense to competitors of what they're doing and could harm their competitive position.

It's on a case-by-case basis. A company may feel over time that it no longer needs to be protected. That may change. We do it on a case-by-case basis with each company.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Let's say I accept that explanation on capex, R and D and other things. For example, in the document we're talking about today, SIF agreement 813-816251, you've redacted the provincial funding envelopes. How is that commercially sensitive? You have the federal SIF and then contributions from the provinces. On pages 19 and 20, all of the provincial funding envelopes are redacted. How is that commercially sensitive? This is publicly available funding from the province.

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Philip Jennings

My understanding, in terms of what was redacted and not redacted, is that the amounts for all these funding envelopes were released.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The amounts are there, but the actual programs where the monies are coming from are redacted. These are public programs that would be available in the estimates and other things. Why would the programs be redacted? I don't understand. You said it's about being commercially sensitive. It seems to me that it's inconsistent.

Denis Martel Director General, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry

On the redactions for the provincial breakdown of the contributions, it's not about the title of the programs, but more about the locations of where the contributions will be disbursed. It's about the projects and the location where the disbursements will happen.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Where the money is going is confidential. You determine it to be commercially sensitive confidential information.

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry

Denis Martel

That is what true consultation with the companies—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Is that what the company requested? Did they request that it be confidential?

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The process that you go through, if the company says that it wants all of these things redacted, do you say yes or do you say no, that's clearly not commercially sensitive and therefore we're not going to redact it?

I guess what I'm asking is, do you have discretion internally to determine what is redacted for the committee or was this just whatever Stellantis, or whichever company, said that they consider this to be commercially sensitive and therefore it needs to be redacted?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Philip Jennings

I guess what I can answer is that it's a back-and-forth discussion we have with companies on a case-by-case basis, and we play a challenge function in terms of what a company requests to be redacted or not. We have always in the past, including in this case, found a reasonable landing ground in terms of what's redacted and what's not redacted.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

How many people in your department have access to these documents to determine the redactions, and what are their levels in the department?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Philip Jennings

In this specific case, the people beside me were involved in those discussions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

That's it? There was no one else in the department? There was no one else who had access to these documents other than the four people sitting here today?