Evidence of meeting #19 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
At the end of the day, it feels to me like we keep being asked to approve billions of dollars without knowing what we're approving. It's the idea of approve it now and you'll find out later. Is that the feeling you're getting as well?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I would say there's lots of information out there, and I go back to the 10,000 pages tabled by the government in English the first week of November. There's a lot of information. There are lots of things that are well explained and there are some things that are less well explained, which is part of the reason why we exist, to render some of those fiscal questions more transparent.
Nothing is ever going to be perfect, and the government has certainly demonstrated the willingness to change or streamline its budget process and its financial reporting process, and I'm certain that the next time you have either Finance officials or Treasury Board officials before the committee, I'm positive they'll be open to your recommendations.
I've never seen them appear at committee and tell a parliamentarian, no, we're not open to your suggestions. We're not going to improve things.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
You also asked for details on the government's comprehensive expenditure review back on November 5. Have they given you a timeline on when you'll receive that?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
No. The correspondence we have on our website from the comptroller general indicates that some of the information may be available sometime in December. We have no clear timelines right now.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
So we keep on voting on, for instance, $1.4 billion in personnel spending without a full analysis of department-by-department breakdowns.
Would you agree that MPs are being asked to approve billions without the key information that's needed?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I would say, going back to the report that's on our website, which we published this morning at 9 a.m., on Build Canada Homes, there was very good information provided by Build Canada Homes that allowed us to produce those calculations and that analysis.
We try to situate...in the context of the cuts in budget 2025 that are planned. It's important that parliamentarians have a sense of, if you're moving in one direction on housing, how it interrelates to $60 billion worth of cuts and 40,000 layoffs. We're able to do some of that but certainly not all of it. Again, it goes back to parliamentarians and how comfortable they feel voting on it. We're simply bean-counters. At least I'm a bean-counter. My colleagues are far more exciting.
Conservative
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Jacques, it is nice to see you again.
I need to understand something. You've indicated that you received a lot of information at the same point in time: supplementary estimates, the budget, public accounts and departmental results reports. Overall, you concurred that it is a good shift to bring the budget to the fall versus the spring cycle that existed previously.
That would be my first question. I'd like just a yes or a no on that.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
What I just want to be clear of as I leave this meeting is what you recommend in terms of the right cycle for all of these various elements as we move forward with a fall budget. Basically in terms of supplementary estimates, public accounts and departmental results reports, how would you see the flow of these various elements coming forward as we move forward?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
The easiest one to touch on is the one we have looked at in the greatest detail, which is the public accounts, the government's audited financial statements. The committee itself has offered a recommendation that the government table the public accounts no later than October 15. We've indicated September 30. We think that six months, based upon what happens in other jurisdictions across the country and other countries around the world, is plenty of time. Moving those up to a fixed day before supplementary estimates (B), and also before the budget, I think would be worthwhile.
For the other documents, it primarily is a question of.... From our perspective, the government does table...it produces a lot of information, and it makes that public in both of Canada's official languages. The challenge is the linkage between that information and the work of parliamentarians and what parliamentarians need to vote on.
Coming out of the first week of November, there are three confidence votes around the budget itself. There are meetings happening elsewhere on the Hill with respect to the public accounts. There is going to be another confidence vote around the appropriation bill linked to supplementary estimates (B). It strikes me, based upon the conversations of parliamentarians, that it's a lot to digest within a very short period of time.
Moving some of those documents earlier and giving people more time to actually digest them would probably serve everyone fairly well. Occasionally, from my perspective, I'm left with the feeling that the public service has done yeoman's service to produce very detailed public accounts and, at the same time, there isn't enough time for parliamentarians to actually go through that and fully benefit from the work the public service has done.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
It's been an unusual year this year and, hopefully, we'll see changes moving forward.
I want to understand the issue of emergency management for first nations. Your report notes that emergency management costs for first nations communities have increased by about 34% annually since 2017. Also, with climate-related disasters, they're becoming more frequent, especially in rural and northern regions. Do the dollars reflected here reflect a structural gap in funding or it is simply meaning the real pressures the communities are now facing?
Govindadeva Bernier Director, Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I think it's indeed real pressure, in the sense that there has been a significant increase in the number of wildfires and floods in particular. That's what explains or mostly drives the increase in spending.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Climate-related issues are at the heart of these increases.
Director, Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Like I said, floods and wildfires and what causes them.... I'm not a climate expert.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I'm sorry. I'll put a fine point on that. We did publish a report about six weeks ago on the disaster financial assistance arrangements and the growth in compensation offered by the federal government to provinces as related to disasters. It was something that we specifically identified, the growth in both the frequency and the severity of natural disasters, and I believe we clearly indicated in the report that it was linked to climate and climate change, among other factors.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Coming back to a basic question for me on rural Canada, when you look at the estimates and all of the various programs that are highlighted, do you feel that in general they are directly supporting essential services that are required in rural and northern Canada? In other words, are the services reliable and accessible for smaller communities in general? Do you take a look at it from that perspective?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
We have not. It's a very good question, though.
With respect to indigenous affairs, INAN recently passed a motion for us to undertake effectively a gap analysis for on-reserve services for first nations policing in comparing it to policing in other rural communities. If it were the will of the committee, we could do something similar.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
That is our time.
Would that be appropriate? Are you looking for that, but for rural communities, as opposed to just first nations?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I think we all seem pretty comfortable if you could do that for us as per Ms. Rochefort's request, so it's similar, but just for small rural communities.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Wonderful. Thank you for that.
I will now go to Mrs. Block and then Ms. Khalid, and then we'll finish up with Ms. Gaudreau.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Mr. Jacques, last week we heard testimony from the Treasury Board that departments didn't have to hand over their savings plans because details were still being finalized. You testified today that your powers to request information are honoured in some circumstances, such as for Build Canada Homes, but that in regard to the Defence Investment Agency, those documents were refused even though parliamentarians were asked to approve a budget that allocates funding for it.
In a previous meeting, you testified. We all understand that you are here to serve parliamentarians and that our work is impeded when your work can't be done. Section 79.4 of the Parliament of Canada Act, as we discussed at that meeting, allows the PBO “free and timely access to any information under the control of the department or parent Crown”, yet I believe there are still a number of departments that have not complied with your request for information so that you can do your work in serving parliamentarians.
On that basis, Chair, I am going to move the following motion. I believe it's being sent to the clerk right now. It will read as follows.
That the committee order the production “of all documents required to satisfy the Parliamentary Budget Officer's information requests 852, 859, 860, 861, 862 and 864, provided that: (a) these documents shall be (i) deposited with the clerk of the committee within one week of the adoption of this order, and (ii) kept in confidence by the clerk and made accessible only to the Parliamentary Budget Officer and his staff; (b) if the Parliamentary Budget Officer is not satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, he shall promptly notify the Chair and the clerk who, in turn, shall prepare a report to the House, which the Chair shall table forthwith, outlining the material facts of the matter.”