Mr. Lunney, for five minutes.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Health in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Health in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Thank you very much. It is a very interesting discussion, and I can certainly sympathize with the challenges of trying to manage this file.
We know that Canada has changed a lot. You mentioned in your comments, Ms. Bush, that Canada has changed so much in the years since the food guide was first established.
Dr. Bennett mentioned omega-3. You mentioned folic acid.
Agricultural practices have changed so much today that the food and nutrient content of our foods are perhaps not what they were in our parents' day. The tomato of 1956 was probably not the same as a tomato in 2006 in terms of the nutrient content. When you add to that the complications of travel to the north, many of our food products are picked before they're optimal.
You talked about in-season fruits, which are great when you can get them fresh. But with our transportation today, they are transported great distances. I chose an avocado appetizer the other day, which sounded great on the menu, with tuna and good stuff mixed in with it, but the avocado was so hard it was crunchy. It makes you wonder whether the food value of that is actually what we might have anticipated.
You made reference to the challenge of metering nutrients. I might add to the list—we were talking about calcium—bio-availability challenges with some of the products that are out there. You mentioned eating and then taking a vitamin and mineral supplement. Is there any consideration of recommending to Canadians that they take a vitamin/mineral supplement to augment foods that vary in nutritional value from one place to another, to help meet those nutritional requirements?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Thank you for the question.
In terms of the nutrient content of food, I want you to know that I started out my career, more years ago than I care to remember, squeezing tomatoes in a horticultural research institute laboratory where they were actually genetically breeding tomatoes to increase the vitamin C content. So I can tell you the vitamin C content of a tomato varies depending upon whether it rained the day before it was picked. You have to put all of these sorts of nutrient content issues around the food supply into a perspective of how much we know and how much we don't know. There isn't a feeling or evidence that what we need to be doing today is eating our nutrients in a vitamin pill.
Now that I've said that, I can tell you that this particular food pattern that we're putting forward does not meet the vitamin D requirements of those over 50. So that is an issue that will need to be addressed. But I think none of what we heard—I shouldn't say “none”, because there are people who say we should simply tell Canadians to take a vitamin pill and then not worry about what it is they're eating, or worry less about what they're eating. In fact, what we tried to do is integrate not only nutrient requirements but a pattern that will reduce risk of chronic disease.
What we hear from people...all anecdotal, I don't know that anybody has done research. My colleagues can correct me if I'm wrong, but very often people will think that if they take a vitamin and mineral supplement they don't have to worry. They think it doesn't matter if they take some cookies and choose to think it's part of their pattern of eating because they've covered it off with a vitamin and mineral supplement. That isn't a sound approach to healthy eating.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
I appreciate that perspective. But the fact is that if you're short on chromium to metabolize sugar, it might help to take a vitamin supplement.
I only have a short time. Can I go on to another subject?
I want to raise this question because you mentioned a very important aspect when you mentioned that part of the purpose of the guide is to ensure that Canadians, in choosing their foods, consume appropriate amounts of energy. That word “energy” is interesting, and I wanted to pick up on a submission by Dr. Yoni Freedhoff of the Bariatric Medical Institute here in Ottawa. He raises that question and quotes the Chief Medical Officer of Health of Ontario. He talks about energy and says body weight is a relationship between energy in and energy out. The energy is, of course, measured in calories, not foods. Yet the food guide has a habit of explicitly instructing us to follow the food guide to make healthy food choices and maintain healthy weight.
To follow through on that, he says, “The proposed revision to Canada's Food Guide provides zero guidance on calories, aside from vague...,” what he characterizes as utterly useless statements like, “Try not to eat too much, or more or less.” He is saying that by failing to provide guidance on calories, Health Canada puts Canadians at dramatic disadvantage in managing their weights.
How do you respond to that criticism?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
It is a perspective that I know has been expressed by him, and it is a perspective that isn't shared widely by others. We take this very seriously. We don't just casually say we don't agree with something. We are very careful about this.
I can take tell you that we've actually met with the scientific director of the Canadian Obesity Network, Dr. Sharma. We asked him whether he thought we should be talking about calories. His answer was no.
We went right across this country for our consultations. We didn't just ask if they liked the pictures. We had a whole section on energy. It is such an important issue. We asked if we were adequately dealing with energy, if there was something we needed to do better. The overwhelming response was that what we were doing was very important, and they wanted us to do what we do better. Not many people talked about counting calories.
Did we hear it? Yes. There are opinions as wide as this room on every element in this food guide. What one needs to do is look for evidence that underpins the guide. You go to the experts and garner their input. Then you go through and make a decision on how to proceed.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
I want to build on what you said about there being a wide variety of opinions. In a consultation process people are always going to look at things through their own lens.
I think Dave said it best earlier. We've had a chance to hear from a number of witnesses, a number of stakeholders. If you take a look at the transcripts, you will realize that every single person who came forward as a witness on this topic stated time and again that they felt they were not consulted. This is what my two colleagues, Madam Demers and Madam Gagnon, told us as well.
You've spoken today with a tremendous amount of passion. I really appreciate that, and I think all the other members do as well. I'm sure it's been an onerous process. But we as the health committee are trying to ensure that this is the best possible food guide. We want the food guide to be used by Canadians from different socio-economic and cultural backgrounds. We want it to have an impact on reducing obesity in the country.
Your version of the consultations is vastly different from the versions that other witnesses have given us. Some of the groups you spoke of, like Dr. Gideon from the AFN, were consulted. A few of the witnesses have said they were consulted, but they have all stated that they were consulted not on the substance part of it, not in terms of content, but on what the diagrams and pictures should look like. Yes, packaging is an important part of it, but these organizations are concerned about the substance, because they are catering to their particular demographic.
Could you clarify this for us?
Secondly, my colleague Ms. Davidson asked you whether this was a draft of the food guide. I'm a little confused, because in your presentation you said it was going up to the minister—there were a few things that needed tweaking, but it was a done deal. Based on what Madam Gagnon said, if we have recommendations, will they be incorporated in the final document?
Last but not least, can we as a health committee get a copy of the food guide in its draft form?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Let me tell you that the draft on which you heard testimony was a draft that went out for consultation. There's a resemblance to what will come out finally, but it has been improved by taking what we heard in consultation and improving it.
When the comments are made about substance versus packaging, I want you to know—
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
That's their description of the consultations, of what's happening.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
I know, I've read the transcripts.
Let me tell you we care passionately about substance. Anyone who cares, in replying to the consultation where we go through and ask specific things, yes, about the packaging of the information, but also about how we're dealing with energy, which should be a very important issue for this committee, because we spent extensive time in consultation asking for input on how we had dealt with the energy balance issue and how we could improve it.... We also ended our consultation with the question, is there anything else you would care to comment on to Health Canada about this initiative? We're here waiting, and wanting, and ready to receive that input. So if somebody had said to us, you know, I think you've missed it, you've got way too many fruits and vegetables, or too few, or as we heard in consultation, they comment that they don't think where we've gone with fruits and vegetables is right....
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
Were those consultations invited in terms of substance? Was it just a general question, please comment and let me know what you think? Was that the general question, or was it, what do you think in terms of the substance of fruit and vegetables, or poultry?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
We went through every food group and asked questions on every food group. In terms of whether there was detailed, substantive questioning, my answer to you is no. It's not because we're not interested in that, but rather, what are you going to ask? I say that with respect, because in fact we spent a fair amount of time.... From my perspective, what I wanted was an opportunity to hear from anyone who cared to tell us that they thought we hadn't done this well. Tell us.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield
Thank you very much. I don't think we're going to get an answer on that one.
Mr. Batters.
Do you have an answer to that? Okay, we'll have a quick answer here, and then we'll get to Mr. Batters.
4:55 p.m.
Director, Research, Monitoring and Evaluation, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Department of Health
Very quickly, at the November 2005 consultation, we did present the protocol that we used to come up with the pattern, so there was content, and we explained what the model was that we used, how we proceeded to come up with our food guide pattern.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
Can we get the draft of the guidelines for the health committee?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB
Just briefly, Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank again the witnesses.
We often have stereotypes of the civil service, and for the record, I would just like to say that I am very impressed with the panel, particularly, Ms. Bush, with your passion. I want the transcript to reflect that you obviously believe in what you're doing. Your hand gestures and your articulation of the principles and the motivation behind this are really inspiring. You all serve your country well, and thank you for that. I'm going out to eat a carrot after this meeting.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK
Mr. Chair, thank you.
We are all feeling the passion in this meeting here today.
I have a question. We're at the point now where it's almost a fait accompli, but not quite. I wonder if you could, for the benefit of the committee, walk us through where it goes from here. Exactly what steps do you have to take from where you are right now until the consumer hard copy or my beloved laminated two-sided card is available for the public? Exactly what has to happen and who has to make these approvals? Ms. Dhalla is asking for the draft, what you have in front of you.
I understand that eventually we have to have a finished product here. You can have paralysis by analysis, you can go through this ad nauseam, and you've gone through it quite a bit here. Eventually we have to print something. So what is the process until we have a finished product? And is there any kind of, here's what we've come up with after all this consultation, and it's thumbs up or thumbs down? How does this work?
Thanks, Ms. Bush.
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Right now, the food guide is not finished until final concurrence is given by the Minister of Health to the product and its content. That's where we are; we're moving through right now. It's not there, but that's part of the process. Once that happens, we move immediately into production. Production will involve making hard copies of the consumer piece--
5 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK
I understand, but I'm going to stop you there, Ms. Bush.
You're telling me that it's almost ready to go to the minister. Who has to see it before it goes to the minister?
5 p.m.
Director General, Office of Nutrition Policy and Promotion, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
It goes throughout the chain, right from the deputy minister to the assistant minister down to us.