Health Committee on May 7th, 2007

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

No, no. She has another turn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

That'll do for now.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

On the assisted human reproduction board, I guess we're a bit concerned that if it had anything to do with people with HIV/AIDS or hepatitis C or any cancer, you wouldn't dream of having a board that didn't have people who knew about it. So I would like to know that those three slots will be filled and that you will be able to put somebody on the board who has the experience that the board is set up to regulate, which is the safe and ethical treatment...of the people who know about it.

So you can just do it. You don't have to answer, actually, or maybe you should answer.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We still have three positions to go, and there has been a multiplicity of advice on those positions, so I will take your suggestions under advisement.

I should say that there's an impressive array of expertise on that board. They reflect a wide range of interests. I suppose I can disclose that there is a member of the board who has gone through the process of assisted human reproduction. I don't think I'm at liberty to say any more than that, but I can give you that assurance publicly.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

And I guess the whole issue around the science is still concerning, that it would then be without a board member who has experience in the science, that this could be interpreted only by the staff of the agency rather than somebody with expertise on the board.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The board is perfectly at liberty and, indeed, encouraged to find the expertise where it is required, and should do so.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I'm going to use this--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

We're very tight, so just a quick one.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I'm very concerned, on the whole issue of health policy planning and information, that the estimates are going down and that sunsetting the primary care transition fund is of huge.... We aren't even a quarter of the way down the road to primary care transition. To sunset that, but also to see that your whole health policy shop will have less money next year and the year after that, I don't know how....

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

We'll allow a quick answer on that and then we'll move on.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There are two issues there. One issue is that the primary care transition fund, as you said, is now sunsetted. I had an excellent meeting with the College of Family Physicians, and we're going to be doing a lot of work with recruitment, retention initiatives, and other standards setting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Madam Gagnon, you have 10 minutes. The floor is yours.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Good afternoon, minister. We are pleased to have you with us today. We'll be able to ask you some questions that go beyond votes.

My first question concerns acquisition cards. The Auditor General has pointed the finger at a number of departments, including Health, over the excessive use of acquisition cards enabling various officials to make purchases for their departments. In 15 years, the number of purchases has increased from 2,000 to 35,600, which represents expenditures of $600 million, compared to $200 to $300 million 15 years ago. The same is true for travel cards: $30 million in six years. There's been a significant increase.

Minister, what do you intend to do about this? We say that the rules have to be obeyed, but it's not necessary to add new ones. We're also saying that certain directives are obsolete. Cards are used to make costly purchases, limits are too high, there is talk about names of ships or units, which runs against the Treasury Board policy.

Have you given your department instructions to change this way of doing things? Of the $600 million attributed to the Health Department's various expenditures, for what sum has the Auditor General pointed the finger at the department? I know that two other departments have also been singled out.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for your question. Our department was the subject of a number of recommendations, which I take very seriously. It is important to respond to all suggestions, and our department will be making a number of changes to protect taxpayers' money.

I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Nouvet, who can give you more details.

[Marcel Nouvet, Acting Chief Financial Officer, Department of Health]

I don't have the details on the amounts of money in question, but we are definitely the smallest of the three departments. You nearly named one when you cited an example.

About a month ago, for the purpose of reinforcing the policy, we sent a notice around the department, in the finance network, stating the good practices that should be followed and immediately implemented the Auditor General's recommendation.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Minister, I'd like to talk to you about assisted human reproduction. I asked you a question in the House concerning three positions that were to be filled. However, I don't know whether you're going to announce appointments to those positions soon.

We criticized the composition of the agency's board of directors. In addition, the Infertility Awareness Association of Canada is disappointed because it has emphasized how important it is to obtain various opinions. You even said, in your address, that you are taking into account patients and patient advocates. Assisted human reproduction very much involves patient rights. Your good intentions are directed at the Infertility Awareness Association of Canada. That association is asking that people from various groups combating infertility sit on the board of directors.

Are you going to announce any good news, that is to say a balanced membership? Currently, it appears that the people who make up the committee are more opposed to abortion because, for them, that's a moral issue. That might put a brake on research. I don't mean to criticize people's moral opinions, but you nevertheless have to strike a certain balance.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for your comment.

It is important, of course, that experts sit on this board of directors, because they can examine very complex questions from moral, legal and scientific standpoints. The questions that the board must examine have a number of dimensions. It must also represent the interests and opinions of Canadians. I think that is currently the case. As I said in English, there is an old passion on the board that can offer a passionate perspective. The board can also call on the expertise of other persons in solving a given problem.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

That's your point of view, but it isn't shared. You've given me virtually the same answer as you gave me in the House of Commons. I don't see any new opening on your part with regard to the selection of the three new members.

Minister, there is also the matter of cosmetic products. You must have read in the newspapers that these products are disturbing. The obligation to list ingredients on cosmetic products does not appear to be enough to increase people's awareness. Even some children's soaps contain products that are harmful to them.

Will you go further than simply putting lists of ingredients on a Web site in order to make users aware of certain dangerous products that may even result in cancer? You moreover said in your address that you were very sensitive to this issue, that science had made progress and that you wanted to fight cancer.

In California, they're going further than that. They're putting warnings on products containing certain components that might have an impact on cancers. The impact could be long-term. That's a bit disappointing. Health Canada—I won't name the spokesperson—has somewhat trivialized the dangerousness of certain products frequently used by consumers. When children use certain products, their health is at stake.

Do you intend to examine this matter more quickly? Very dangerous components are found in certain products. Could you go so far as to permit labels to be affixed to products containing such components? The list of dangerous products is hard to decipher. People may not understand the harmful impact of certain products on cancer development.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The best solution is to have a process whereby certain chemical components of a cosmetic product can be declared toxic and to have a plan prohibiting those components. Last year, we announced the Chemicals Management Plan.

That plan is the most aggressive plan in the world. I think I can say that without contradiction.

We are going through each and every set of chemicals in a fashion that is comprehensive and aggressive. We are asking industry, if it's a chemical that we are concerned about, to prove to us that it can be used safely by the consumer or in the workplace, or else that chemical is phased out.

Other countries are envious of us, quite frankly, because we have such a comprehensive and aggressive plan to take place.

In my opinion, a comprehensive and dynamic action plan is the best way to detect problems of toxicity in the future. In the event of a problem, our responsibility is clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much. Your time is gone.

We will now move on to Ms. Penny Priddy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and staff, for being here. I know how much preparation goes into estimates. That has been a lot of work for everybody.

Minister, I think in September 2006 you announced a $1 billion cut to health programs at the same time that a multi-billion dollar surplus was being announced. I'd like to know what programs have been affected by that $1 billion cut.

I'll try to ask my questions quickly. If your answers can be reasonably quick, we'll get through more questions.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'll try my best.

Certainly Health Canada was part of the.... Just to be clear, there was a $1 billion savings initiative across the whole government, not in Health Canada. I just want to make that clear. Our portion of that was about $62.4 million across the health portfolio.

Some programs of lower priority, such as the medical marijuana research program, were cut out. There were also some grants that had not been utilized. We were able to cut those without actually cutting programming. The Health Council of Canada had certain funds that way; the Canadian Patient Safety Institute, the same thing. We've also, in our corporate management, tried to consolidate functions to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the department.

Of course, the one area in which I was insistent, and officials agreed, was that if there was a core activity relating to health and safety, that was not part of the cut.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you.

Who established the priorities, to say that the medical marijuana research program was a very low priority?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There was a whole process in government that took place through the summer of last year. Each department went through a process with Treasury Board Secretariat and with the President of Treasury Board. We were part of that process.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

So the department responsible came forward and said what was low priority.