Health Committee on June 6th, 2006

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Minister, I would like to welcome you and the various representatives of the institutions that report to you.

Today I wanted to ask you questions of an administrative nature, but also of a political nature, with regard to the tainted blood file. A number of people are looking to you and hoping to hear answers that are encouraging for them. They've been waiting for those answers for a number of years now. The Liberal Party said this would ruin the government, but, in fact, that won't happen, since agreements were reached in favour of the contaminated blood victims between 1986 and 1990.

We're currently in negotiations, and a memorandum of understanding is being analyzed. You attended a meeting not very long ago. I believe that was on May 13.

Can you tell us when the tainted blood victims will be compensated? Would it be possible for there to be an interim agreement, since, in any case, the compensation amounts will be between $10,000 and $240,000, depending on the severity of the case? Are you going to take quick action? When are you going to act? I'd also like to hear what you have to say about the interim agreement.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

First, finding a solution for the hepatitis C victims as soon as possible is a priority for us and for me. In fact, we expressed our intention in that regard during the last election campaign. This is also one of the Prime Minister's priorities.

Negotiations are currently under way. It's hard for me to answer your question, since negotiations are taking place right now. However, I would like to emphasize that the government's intention is to find a solution for the victims as soon as possible. On the other hand, it's impossible for me to say more about that at this time.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

How many individuals do you think would be entitled to compensation? I don't know where the negotiations stand, but there is talk of 6,000 individuals. Can you give us a few clues? Since you've identified 6,000 individuals, could you compensate them quickly since, in any case, they're going to be compensated and receive between zero and $10,000? Perhaps you could agree on an amount that would be paid to them soon.

A number of people have been affected not only physically, but financially as well. Time is of the essence for some of them. Some have probably died. I believe we should proceed quickly. You said it was a priority, and I believe you're being honest in saying that, but, at the same time, we must take financial action to comfort these people.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I agree with what you're saying. Negotiations are currently under way. In fact, it's impossible to know at this time how many victims there are in this category, since that's part of the negotiations. However, we're trying to find a solution as quickly as possible. I would like us to find a final solution very soon for all those people affected.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

You can't tell us when the negotiations and process will be complete? You know, it could go on until Christmas.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I hope that...

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Will they be finished in a few months, in a few weeks? This is an urgent matter because this case has been going on for 10 years now. Moreover, work has been done. You've inherited a file that you're not familiar with; you know the scope of the problem. It's time to take action. The fees collected by the negotiating and legal team mean less money available. Can you tell us how much is left in the fund right now? Reference was made to $800 million. An amount of $1.1 billion was originally allocated, and $360 million has been used to compensate the victims. Can you give us an overview of what remains in the fund? You referred to 6,000 individuals. You say the decision had been made to pay people between $10,000 and $240,000. Before a final agreement is reached, isn't there some way to make interim payments?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

First I'll answer your last question. I believe it's important that there be a final agreement. I hope that's possible.

To answer your other questions, I would like to say, once again, that there are lawyers for each party and an agreement has to be negotiated. I'd like there to be an agreement this week, but negotiations are taking place because there are a number of viewpoints. It's important to resolve all the issues. We have to take the necessary time to do so.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Are you or your department in regular contact with the people who are negotiating?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Oh, yes.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

So they must have given you a report on the progress made in the negotiations under way. They must have told you whether it would all be finished in three weeks or a month. It can drag on forever. I previously used lawyers, and I had to say that I was paying up and that I would stop paying lawyers because ultimately there was virtually nothing left.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

You know it's important to really negotiate with the victims' representatives. We're negotiating in good faith, and I hope everything will go well.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Could you report to us in the next few weeks on the status of the situation? Parliament will have completed its business within two weeks. The tainted blood victims are disappointed that we're not giving them a clear answer today. We're in politics, and it's up to you to give an answer. A limit has to be set on the negotiations because they can go on forever. A political decision should be made and it should be determined that the negotiations will have to be completed on a specific date. We agree on the fact that we're going to compensate the victims. How much money remains in the fund? We have to answer that today. How much money is left? How many victims are there? Regardless of whether there are 5,000 or 6,000, we have to establish a limit and state that we have to agree and proceed as soon as possible before the House of Commons rises.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There's no limit. Negotiations are under way and they will finish when there is an agreement, not before. We're serious, and the other side is serious as well. We'll make an announcement when there is an agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much. Your time is up.

Madam Priddy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, and the staff who are here with you, for spending this much time answering questions. It's important for all of us. I realize it's a fair chunk out of your day, so we appreciate that.

I'd like to continue on with the question asked by my colleague just previous, with regard to people with hepatitis C outside the window. It's not as if we have not done this before. We know what negotiations look like, because we did that for people who were inside the window. It's not a brand new process for the lawyers to know how to do this.

I understand in some ways your saying the lawyers are working on it, but when you are someone with hepatitis C who has, I don't know, a week or a month to live, and you're losing your home, and you've lost your job....

If you were to look over your left shoulder, Mr. Minister, you would see, in the whole front row, people who have come--because they knew you would be here--from across this province, spending what is for them very precious energy that they may not get back, to hear from you an answer on when they will be able to have compensation.

I know you said it's a top priority, and I don't doubt the sincerity of that, but you said it during the election, and that was five months ago. On May 2 I think you said to me, in the House, the words “with alacrity”. I assume that means--the last time I checked--as quickly as possible, or speedily. I don't know if it's alacrity that we're seeing here.

The other thing is that we have people here who truly, as I say, are not taking their medicine. They cannot afford it. They are losing their homes, and they're losing family members and friends. They need to know, if you're saying you can't tell us a date, that there will be a commitment. I would ask you today if you could provide a date for an agreement to an interim payment, for people to at least be able to afford to feed their children, to be able to have their medication, to be able to at least have a certain amount in their lives, based on an interim payment.

This is my question to you today: are you able to give those people, sitting in the front row, watching you with hope--and they came here with hope--a date for when they would receive an interim payment?

I would also ask about survivor benefits. I don't know if survivor benefits have been spoken of. I have not heard them spoken of in this particular negotiation. Many of these people here have husbands, wives, children that they are responsible for. If an agreement is not reached with survivor benefits included, then not only will they have lost what they have, but their families also will be left in destitute positions.

So I would ask if you could answer those questions: Will survivor benefits be included, and can you provide today a date for when people would be receiving an interim payment, if you cannot announce today a date for when an agreement will be reached?

As I said, I think people have done this before, the lawyers have experience, and I would think it's like inventing it again. It seems to me they could move faster, and I would be expecting, if I were minister, that they would.

If you could answer those questions, I'd appreciate it.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your concerns. I know we're all trying to do the right thing around this table. I don't think any of us want to exploit this and the victims themselves for cheap political advantage. I think we're all here for the right reasons, and I will take your comments and your questions in that context.

[A voice]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

That's why I said it.

What can I say? This is a very frustrating time for the individuals in question. For them it's not a question of waiting five months, it's a question of waiting years and years for a government that would listen to them and that would take their plight seriously. When we try to measure the timeframe of frustration for the people....

Many of these people I dealt with as the Ontario Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. They were as frustrated then...or in some ways more so. We all have constituents who are impacted by this; I do too. I cannot imagine the stress and the health issues they have to go through. I'm not pretending to be in their stead, but certainly as a human being I can empathize with them. I want to do what I can do on some form of restitution. That's what we're committed to as a government. We were committed to it in opposition, along with members of your party. I took that very seriously upon being sworn in as Minister of Health.

I don't think it's wise for me, in the middle of negotiations, to be too specific about what I think the appropriate deal should be. That would be bargaining in bad faith, quite frankly. So I choose to be more general than I usually am in answering questions on the issues you raised. We have a very serious process that the government side takes seriously and the plaintiff side takes seriously, and, just as they are, I am wedded to that process.

My friends behind me have legal representation, as a class. That legal representation is responsible to them. If they have questions about the negotiating stance of the legal representation, I can't answer on behalf of that legal representation, but they can get answers.

I think it would be wise for me to stop there. Believe me, this is frustrating for me, although not half as frustrating as what they have to go through, and I know that. I want to do the right thing, just as you do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

You have time for one last short one, if you want to exercise it.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I will, then, thank you very much.

So the answer is, no, we don't have a date for a final settlement; no, we cannot commit to an interim payment; no, we cannot speak of survivor benefits.

I have the same experience you have, Mr. Minister. I was the Minister of Health when this happened in British Columbia. It's the reason I'm taking it so seriously, as you have from your experience.

I am incredibly disappointed that people here today will go away with that answer--“No, no, and no.”

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I think that's unfair. That's you putting in my mouth your interpretation of my answers.

My answers were that we're at the table and we're taking this seriously. We've taken this further than any other government has done. In the short months that we've been in power, this has gone further down the road of solution than anybody else has taken it.

So to say that it's “No, no, and no” is a misapprehension of the facts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Mr. Fletcher, you have 10 minutes.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for taking the time to come out today.

I have to say, Minister, that your colleagues, and I believe all Canadians, are quite impressed with the way you're handling the health file and the fact that your approach seems to be one of consultation and action.

I'd like to touch on the hepatitis C issue. Ever since the people outside the window were denied compensation by the previous government, the Conservative Party has led the charge, first with Dr. Grant Hill, when he was senior health critic, and then Rob Merrifield. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to pursue the issue of hepatitis C compensation. Of course, you're very involved in that, as someone who will follow through on that commitment.

I wonder if you could comment on the process...our government compared with the previous government. I realize that when we were in opposition we talked about immediate compensation, and I know that term can be interpreted as a relative term. I think we're proceeding equivalent to an “Ottawa nanosecond” compared to the way the previous government dealt with the issue.

So I wonder if you could contrast the way our government is handling an issue such as hepatitis C, and comment on really the tragedy of this dark chapter in Canadian history, and how our government will deal with this specific issue and any other future issues that arise that may be similar.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I think the key take-home message that I can share with the committee is that upon our election and swearing in, I was able to immediately launch a policy review of the position of the Government of Canada when it came to hepatitis C compensation. That has led to the current state of the situation, which is a very serious negotiation.

So the policy review, the approval of a stance, of a position, the commencement of serious negotiations--all of that took place within the space of about four months. I think that is testament to our seriousness in dealing with this issue that, quite frankly, has been left out there for too long a period of time.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the parliamentary secretary has been outspoken on this in the past, and has been very helpful in the present in keeping us on track.

I don't want us to be mired in negativity on this front. I think the message to hepatitis C victims and to Canadians who care about this file, and there are very many who do, is one of optimism and one of progress. That's the take-home message I want to give to people. I'm an optimistic person by nature--one has to be if one wants to be in politics, perhaps--and I do feel that we are making headway.