Health Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The Minister of Natural Resources publicly announced that it was important that a national examination of the future of AECL be undertaken. I support this announcement. It is important, because of all the challenges this Crown corporation faces. I support this announcement.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

You support it, but what I asked you is this: were you informed about the problem of non-compliance with respect to production?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Of course; I am a member of cabinet.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

But I am wondering about one thing: how did you share leadership with your colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources? You also must monitor the available supply of isotopes. You told us that you are very concerned about people's health, which is a priority for you, but on December 10 it was already too late for you to be expressing your emotions on this subject. You ought to have shown leadership for your colleague in order to establish a plan and get the various stakeholders involved in a solution. You say you acted promptly, but I do not think so. You reacted because you found yourself on the brink of a catastrophe—the shutdown of the reactor and the dwindling supply of isotopes.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Indeed, it is important for our government to take the lead in discussing and drawing conclusions about the future of AECL.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

It was your own leadership I was talking about.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

If there is a problem related to radioisotopes, I exercise my leadership by contacting the health institutions across the country and perhaps having discussions with the other radioisotope producers. I have convened a group of experts to discuss the issue. That is leadership.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

I understand that on December 10, at five minutes to midnight, you convened the experts and all that. Nevertheless, you could have started reacting the day after the report was issued, or during the weeks that followed. That was in 2007; you had some time available. You knew very well that the agency was not living up to its responsibilities regarding this licence. You knew that the operations were non-compliant.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I trust the Minister of Natural Resources to take charge of this file and I hope it will be possible to draw conclusions about the future of AECL very soon. It is my role to support the Minister of Natural Resources in seeking other solutions.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

The president , Ms. Keen, was fired. Do you not see a conflict of interest between the developer and the regulator? Was Minister Lunn's decision not made in a conflict of interest situation involving the agency, which develops the product, and the regulator, which must monitor the developer's operations and ensure that all obligations are met? Is this not a conflict of interest that could threaten the production of isotopes?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I support the Minister of Natural Resources, of course, and I think—

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Supporting him is all very well, but you are not answering my question. There is a problem. The Minister of Natural Resources is sure to decide to put the reactor back into operation. Similarly, the Prime Minister said there was no danger, and everything was safe. They thumbed their noses at the agency that was supposed to monitor the licence holder.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Madame Gagnon, your time is just about up. If we could have the minister answer the question, that would be great.

Thank you.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The Parliament of Canada made the decision to restart the Chalk River reactor. I support that decision. It was a decision made by Parliament, not by Mr. Lunn.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

It was a hard decision for Parliament to make.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Madame Gagnon.

Thank you, Minister.

We go to Ms. Wasylycia-Leis now, please.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Thank you, Minister, and your staff, for being here.

I know that you felt we were in a life-threatening situation; you said so during the debate on December 11. But nothing that you did, Mr. Minister, leading up to that moment suggests that you reacted in any way that resembled reacting to a life-and-death situation. Even if you didn't know until December 5.... And I have no proof to suggest otherwise, except that it just seems incredible, unbelievable, that you wouldn't have known about this life-threatening situation before December 5, especially given our testimony from MDS Nordion, where irrefutable evidence was clearly put on record to suggest that they let your government know on November 22.

So even if you didn't know until December 5, it seems to me that you didn't react with any haste. You didn't let the health community know publicly. You didn't let parliamentarians know. You didn't take any immediate steps to actually deal with this on a very urgent basis. Even when your deputy minister was asked if he knew if it was December 5 when he had heard, he said, “I heard on December 5, and I believe the department learned on December 5.” So clearly, he's left the door open to the fact that somebody in the department would have known. There would have been some communication somewhere if it had been as life-threatening as you talk about.

We also know today from the testimony by MDS Nordion that on November 23 they were out making calls all around the world looking for other suppliers. For the health department not to know that strikes me as absolutely bizarre. If we accept the fact that you didn't know on December 5, that means there was a clear breakdown of communication in your government. That's what we had hoped you would address today, that you would acknowledge this problem and say how you're going to fix it. There is nothing that you have said either in the protocol or in your remarks today that suggests how you will make sure in your government that when someone in one department, like Natural Resources, hears something of a life-threatening nature, there's a mechanism for getting that information to the highest levels of government.

Mr. Minister, you may shake your head at all of this, but I also have been a minister in a government, and I know that if I had faced a similar situation, my head would have rolled, because we operate, as you should, on the basis of ministerial responsibility. You're ultimately responsible for decisions that are made or not made, and you failed in your duties--not personally, but somewhere in your system you failed--and there wasn't a proper line of communication. That's what we haven't heard you address.

So I would like to hear what your plan is in government for ensuring that when such life-threatening information is conveyed to government, it gets from that official to that department to that minister, to the next department that is involved, and to you as Minister of Health responsible for this life-threatening situation.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

I must say that is the biggest pile of nonsense I've heard in a long time. How dare you? How dare you second-guess--

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Oh, so we don't operate on ministerial responsibilities.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I heard you out, now you hear me out.

How dare you second-guess my department, which has made it absolutely clear that they did not know. If you have one scintilla of evidence that they knew something, you provide it. Otherwise, I suggest you keep your accusations to yourself.

My department acted forthrightly and quickly, in lightning speed. I put it to you that they did so because they believe in the health and safety of Canadians. I'd resign the second I felt that I let Canadians down, but I can tell you I've had e-mails and letters from people around the country who said that we acted quickly. They had a friend, a relative, or a neighbour who was in dire need of radioisotopes, and we did the right thing to help the health and safety of Canadians. Those are the people I listen to, and if they told me to resign, I'd resign. But I'm not going to resign because you think you could do a better job.

I've been through this as the Minister of Health for five years, and I can tell you that every time there's a situation like this the opposition demands the resignation of the health minister. I think it's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

All right.

Madam Chairperson, if I could continue with this nonsense, the minister will know that I did not call his suggestion that he didn't hear on December 5 an untruth--

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

You're calling me a liar, and you're calling my deputy a liar. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

--and I did not say that about his department except to point out that the deputy minister chose to use the words “I believe the department...”. And I then proceeded--

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Oh, come on. Is this Perry Mason land now?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

May I now ask my question, Mr. Minister?