Health Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The medical practitioners knew on November 27. Those in the field knew on November 27 that they had a looming problem, that there were difficulties. The media, again, were reporting it before that.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No, no, you see, there was a period of confusion, Monsieur Thibault.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

It remains.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There was confusion in the industry and confusion at AECL as to how long the reactor was going to be shut down, and that's the truth of the situation. All of the people involved, whether at Nordion or AECL, or wherever, were trying to act in good faith.

But the fact of the matter is that it was not clear that the shutdown was going to extend for a long period of time, to the extent that it was going to have an impact on the health and safety of Canadians, until the beginning of December. If you want to disagree with that, you're perfectly entitled to, but those are the facts.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The facts between Mr. Burns and Mr. Lunn are a little bit—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm not here to talk about that. You ask them that question.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The facts between the media having reported it and your not being aware of it—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

That's not a correct characterization, Mr. Thibault, and you know it.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

But it was in the media. You can't deny that.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

A press release doesn't mean it's in the media. And in my estimation, the press release was not exactly clear on the facts.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

It was reported by Canadian Press and it was run out of Halifax by the CBC.

[A voice]

December 1.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

That's the past. I want to get to something further than this. Now we're in the current situation. What are we doing on a national basis? We know we are hoping to have MAPLE 1 and MAPLE 2 come on line, and there are problems with that.

At the Department of Health and other agencies of the federal government, are we looking at alternatives—cyclotrons, or other ways—to maximize, not only within Canada but also internationally, all of the capacity? Even when MAPLE 1 and MAPLE 2 are on line, you could have some catastrophe at Chalk River that would take them all out. Even at that point, that could happen. It's not desirable, but it could happen.

What are we doing to minimize the effects of such events?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Certainly that's exactly one of the mandates of the expert advisory committee I spoke about earlier. They are looking not only at the protocols used to tighten up our internal communications to ensure we know about these things as soon as possible, but also at making sure we have the right alternatives available to us—if they exist technologically—and are able to manifest those as quickly as possible.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I'm going to let Lui Temelkovski ask the last question, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Mr. Temelkovski, Mr. Thibault would like to share his time with you.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned that first you wanted expeditious hearings to be considered in AECL's safety case, and you didn't get any positive results. Then secondly, you issued a directive and you further didn't get any satisfactory results. Then you took decisive action.

The result of all of this is that you developed a notification protocol between AECL, Natural Resources Canada, and Health Canada. Would you agree that this is as a result of those two actions not being followed up?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No, it was as a result of my desire—as Mr. Thibault quite correctly picks at the scar on this—to ensure that we are able to act at Health Canada as quickly as possible, if there is an unscheduled shutdown in the future. That's the desire.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Why was the commissioner not involved in this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Mr. Temelkovski; your time is just about up.

Madame Gagnon.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. Thank you for being with us today.

In my opinion, someone was playing with fire with respect to at least two aspects of the problem: safety and the supply of isotopes for patients. Canada has lost face internationally. Indeed, 60% of our production goes to other countries. Canada has not been looking much like a leader on this file.

Mr. Minister, I would like to ask you a question. You have told us that as soon as you were informed of the situation, on December 5, you and your officials acted promptly. Why was it that the call went out to the European suppliers on the eve of the introduction of the bill and that, during that conversation with certain suppliers, you said that it was not necessary to increase production? Also, in your testimony this morning, you said that no deliveries could be made before November 28 or November 29. Other sources, however, have informed us that Belgium and the Netherlands could have supplied us with isotopes as early as November 18, instead of November 29. I do not understand your delight in saying you acted promptly when we can see serious flaws in your diligence in this file.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for your question.

I have one scenario I can give to all the members of this committee to reply to this question and others. It is clear that we contacted the other nuclear companies for the first time on December 6, especially those in southern Africa. I talked to the president of AREVA in Paris, myself, on December 8. That is all in the scenario.

I can tell you that we acted speedily in this situation. The producers of radioisotopes also responded clearly that there was no possibility the situation would improve before December 19. That was their response.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

I would certainly like to see that response, because other sources have told us that—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I can have that scenario distributed.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Fine.

Let us go back now to some earlier dates. Just now I mentioned the 29th; that was December 29, not November 29; I got the month wrong.

I would like to look at the Auditor General's report for 2007. The Minister of Natural Resources had already been informed. The Auditor General had even pointed out some poor management practices. There was a desire to shut down this 50-year-old reactor.

In fact, the report could not be made public quickly because the company is not obliged to do so. Still, did the Minister of Natural Resources inform you about this problem?