Health Committee on May 28th, 2009

[Arthur Kazianis]

We typically line up with the most onerous standard, as a company, in order to be able to design one product and distribute it throughout the world.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Is that common in industry in general? Do most countries do that, do you know?

[Arthur Kazianis]

I can't comment for the industry at large. The only thing I can tell you is that this has been our practice.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Okay.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about Proposition 65 in the United States. We heard the other panel comment on that. Would you be able to comment on that as well? How has it affected your industry? What are the pros and the cons?

[Arthur Kazianis]

The only comment I can make on Proposition 65, as I indicated before to the panel, is that we are shipping products throughout the world, including California, and we have not yet had any issues with Proposition 65. We do not label the products.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

We had some mention about counterfeit problems. Can you comment on whether there is a problem with counterfeit toys in general in the industry? Do you see that very often?

[Arthur Kazianis]

We have seen it primarily in Europe. As a matter of fact, it's a double sin, in some instances, in that it's not only counterfeit; it also fails regulations.

For the most part, counterfeiters are very smart. They know how to get away with it. They know how to appear and how to disappear quickly. We've looked to the local governments for help in those areas of counterfeiting.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

So in North America it hasn't been a big issue?

[Arthur Kazianis]

I'm sure it has been an issue in North America, but I'm not aware of any specific toy counterfeiting, if you will. We had some issues about six or seven years ago with one of our products.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you so much, Mr. Kazianis.

Now we'll go to Dr. McTeague again.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Are gas prices up or down?

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Gas prices in fact are up this evening, ladies and gentlemen, by one cent a litre, unlike what the National Energy Board just said today.

Thank you, Dr. Carrie.

I don't mean to burden you with these questions again, and I'm probably trying to go over you to the officials behind who might have a better idea how to explain this, but I have just looked again at the Hazardous Products Act. I look at the powers that are given under governor in council, the powers to the minister. It's almost as if we've said, after 40 years, that the Hazardous Products Act is of no use, it's of no force, it's of no relevance. Yet it had the ability to be adapted to meet the rising circumstances of counterfeit products.

Just for your information, Dr. Carrie and I, and others, sat on the industry committee and came up with a unanimous report in terms of how to tackle this issue, with better enforcement questions and obviously the use of better practices, because it was a scar on the Canadian economy and the way in which we conducted our affairs.

I can appreciate the government's desire to get this bill passed, but in the absence of looking at modifying the existing Hazardous Products Act, we may have denied ourselves several months of enforcement, of resources that are otherwise going to lobbyists, that are otherwise going to lawyers who are looking at this, over and over again, and obviously bureaucracy, which may very well be confused by the legislation. I don't want to call this window-dressing, but if you have a car that you're driving down the road and the tire goes, you fix the tire; you don't replace the entire vehicle. It seems to me that what we're doing here, to use another analogy, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

From any of your experience in the various areas in which you've worked, were there examples of where the Hazardous Products Act was deficient, was not adaptable to meet the requirements that some of you now laud in this new bill?

Ms. Reed, perhaps we can start with you. I know you have a lot of experience in the field. In fact, I should call you Dr. Reed.

[Geneviève Reed]

I don't think so; doctor of consumer affairs perhaps!

Nearly 10 years ago there was talk about reforming the consumer products, food and health safety system. Consequently, we think this bill has come at the right time because it finally enables an authority to recall products. The burden of proof rests solely on the shoulders of the importers, manufacturers, distributors and retailers, whereas, under the Hazardous Products Act, if I'm not mistaken, the government has to conduct an extensive and intensive study before it can declare an item hazardous. In this case, it's a completely different way of looking at things. That's why it's essential for us. It may not be perfect, but it's a major step forward.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Do you mean that the act does not permit a change of regulations designed to increase fines or impose a mandatory recall?

[Geneviève Reed]

If I remember correctly, the Hazardous Products Act does not enable the minister to impose mandatory recalls, on the one hand. On the other hand, as I said, it's a reverse burden of proof. Under the Hazardous Products Act, the government had to gather the most exhaustive evidence in order to declare a product hazardous, like walkers.

Now, as soon as we see that there is a hazard, from the standpoint of safety, the minister can order a recall and withdrawal. We think that's really a step forward.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

That's good.

Thank you for that clarification, but I didn't understand whether you think the former act made it possible to go in that direction.

I must ask you another question. Why not require the manufacturer, whether it's in or outside the country, to declare that the product it markets is not hazardous? Is there no such measure in this bill. It seems to me that not requiring certification is a deficiency.

[Geneviève Reed]

That's a very interesting question.

On the one hand, the general prohibition that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I hate to interrupt you, but we're going to have to wrap this up. Just answer it as quickly as you can. We're over.

[Geneviève Reed]

Thank you.

On the one hand, the general prohibition contained in this bill makes it so that it's the responsibility, I repeat, of the manufacturer, the exporter, the retailer, importer, and so on.

On the other hand, a number of clauses in the bill make it possible to prevent the counterfeiting of certification marks. There is no right to engage in untruthful advertising, as a result of which consumers are well protected.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Reed.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I'm not quite as optimistic about this legislation as you are, Geneviève. I know that there are recalls when a product is dangerous. But how you get to that point is left up in the air in this legislation. There is no onus on the government to disclose information. So until you actually have an accident or a death, which calls for a recall, all kinds of serious preliminary situations can develop. I'm not sure it goes far enough.

I'd like to ask Don some more about the whole question of inspection capabilities. If you want to have a precautionary approach, you have to have an active presence in the field. We don't have, as they have in the United States, any kind of third-party inspection of products before they come into this country.

We have only 40 inspectors now. The budget promised by the government might double this over five years, but this whole legislation requires a much more active approach. There is nothing in here that requires importers to be subject to safety testing. There's really nothing that requires an active inspection at the border. Is that not a problem from the point of view of protecting consumers and providing all the information necessary for us to be safe?

[Don Burns]

I can't disagree with anything you're saying. If you have inspectors under a lot of pressure, you have to respond promptly to concerns and problems. At the same time, you have a lot of work to do, and it's very difficult for those individuals to fulfill their obligations under the act. It takes time. I think we have a lot of highly qualified professionals. We have engineers and scientists working on this, and you need that level of expertise to be able to properly evaluate some of these issues.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I appreciate that.

Let me go to others. I disagree with...is it Dr. McTeague today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Just today, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. I want to clarify that.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Oh, thank heavens.