Evidence of meeting #5 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Mr. Maxwell, do you have anything to add with respect to that specific area?
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Madam Chair.
As we noted in our audit, the department is obviously facing several challenges. This is very difficult work to undertake.
That is true, and this perhaps gets to the earlier question as well.
There are many challenges. It seemed to us that probably the most important thing for Health Canada to do, both in terms of first nations information and indicators more generally, was a really good job of mapping out all these different forms of reporting, which are done both inside Health Canada and outside, and then try to have a good plan for filling the gaps.
The gaps are as much about aboriginal health as they are about all the other parts of the national picture and the other parts of the federal population. If you look at the veterans, members of the Canadian Forces, and Correctional Service of Canada inmates, there's a number of populations there too where there's very little information.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
As you know, the Government of Quebec has always said that it will cooperate with the federal government with respect to information related to indicators, however it does not feel obliged to do so because it is accountable to its own population.
In paragraph 1.19 of Chapter 1, you state the following:
More recent large transfers reflect a shift away from government-to-government reporting and toward government-to- citizen reporting. Under this model, the federal government reports to Parliament on how much it transferred to provincial and territorial governments and why. Recipient governments are then expected to report to their legislative assemblies, their citizens, and their stakeholders on how they use public funds, including federal transfers. Provincial and territorial compliance with these reporting expectations may be subject to audit by their respective auditors.
Mr. Maxwell, is that not what is happening with the federal government's attempt to use comparable indicators, whereas the provinces are more inclined to do what you are suggesting in paragraph 1.19 of your audit?
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Madam Chair, our mandate is restricted to the federal level, therefore we did not look at what the provincial governments are doing in that area.
I would add that really in these two different studies we were talking, in the first chapter, of course, about arrangements much broader than health alone. So when we were talking about the nature of accountability, it was not just about health but more broadly.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
You would agree that generally this is a practice... You said yourself that this involves the more recent larger transfers. One could therefore assume that this is becoming the preferred model. Did I understand correctly?
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes. According to the officials we discussed this with,
very much, this model is something that dates back to the 1990s. The Social Union Framework Agreement included many of these principles, that it was no longer accountability of governments to governments as much as, increasingly, accountability of governments to their citizens. So it is a principle that you see increasingly being relied upon. And in our study we talked about one very obvious example of that, which is the trusts.
The trusts are truly based on that principle.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Thank you very much.
It's now the NDP's turn. There has been a request for Ms. Carol Hughes to speak, and before you came in today.... The rules are that she may speak providing the form is done and the member leaves so she can ask the questions. So you should not be in the room if Ms. Hughes is going to be asking the questions. And just to let you know, no one can come in and ask questions without asking the will of the committee, first of all.
So Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, if it's Ms. Hughes, would you please allow her to speak and you can take this time to....
NDP
Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB
Exit? I'd be glad to turn over things to Carol. I've brought the forms for her.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Thank you.
All right, the forms are signed now. Ms. Hughes, as soon as Ms. Wasylycia-Leis leaves, you may start.
NDP
Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB
Are the rules absolutely that they can't have another member in the room?
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
You can discuss it with the clerk later. Let's go on.
Ms. Hughes, go ahead.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Georges Etoka
No, she doesn't have to.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Well, you've signed the paper.
Last time, to be quite honest, this came up because there was no paper signed. And I let it go because I thought we could just discuss this today. So any time another member wants to speak we have to be clear that the paper has to be signed. That was brought up to me after the committee.
Ms. Hughes, go ahead.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Madam Chair, perhaps you would seek unanimous consent that we would allow the member of Parliament to sit at the table, seeing that there are enough chairs.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Let me clarify, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. Last time the rules were not observed, and what happened was that you were both at the table, asking questions. Members came to me afterwards, so we clarified the rules. The rules are that the paper has to be signed, which it has been done. So I understand, yes, they can stay at the table, then.