Health Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Murray.

We'll now go to Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I was going to ask Mr. Reaman about the challenges facing his industry if we perhaps do move too fast. What are the challenges for your industry, and perhaps for prepared food as well?

We're looking at different models around the world, such as in Finland and the U.K., who were way off the charts when they started and are not even down to where we are today. We are now moving ahead and are taking a leadership role here in Canada, but I can see the challenges facing restaurants, for example. You could have restaurant A providing low-sodium food, but at the end of the day, if the food tastes awful and costs a lot, maybe from a marketing standpoint as a business model that company would have challenges actually staying in business, because at the end of the day, the consumer chooses what foods they want to purchase and where they want to go.

Are there health risks if, let's say, the government just mandated that by this or that date you had to have certain things done? Are there options out there in terms of the anti-bacterial and preservative issues you mentioned on which we could get started now?

Maybe Ms. Tanaka and Madame L'Abbé could comment on that, but we'll start with you, Mr. Reaman.

[Ron Reaman]

Sure.

Well, I think the first threat is that if we don't have consumer acceptance of our products—which goes to your point earlier, Ms. Davidson—you may just drive consumers to add salt post-purchase. So if we're trying to achieve a public health outcome, which is reduce Canadians' intake of sodium, then it needs to be considered with a holistic approach. Just flipping a switch overnight and asking the food industry to dramatically reduce the sodium content in their food offerings is not going to get us there, because you're going to have a pendulum effect and a reaction from consumers who do not accept that immediate, dramatic reduction. So that's the first thing I'd say.

The other thing about food service, in particular, is that at the end of the day we are a consumer-demand-driven business, as I said earlier. Customization and substitution are hallmarks of our industry. You and I can walk into a restaurant and order the same thing off the menu, but we are ordering two different meals, because I want an excess of this and less of that, and you want more of this and less of that. Customization and substitution literally define what we do as a business. So again, if we don't cater to our customers' demands, then we will face an economic threat. So yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Madame L'Abbé.

[Dr. Mary L'Abbé]

I can't speak of the specific challenges per se from an economic point of view for the food industry, but I can tell you about a couple of things that came up at the research meeting that I think are germane to the argument.

The food industry doesn't always have an idea of what level of sodium it can go down to, whether it's cheese or cured meat, before it starts risking safety. We've gotten used to certain levels of sodium. It actually now has to find us that data to say how low it can go and not compromise safety. Some of that data is actually missing because historically that's just the level the industry has been using for a number of years.

That's another important aspect. We're waiting for some of that data to occur over the next couple of years, which will have big implications for both the restaurant and the food industry, and the packaged industry as well, so that we know where we can go.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I commend the dairy industry and other industry leaders that are moving that forward, because I do see, in Canada, compared to internationally, we are moving ahead on a very important public health issue. So I am looking forward to the recommendations that you bring forward.

Ideally, as a father with three small kids, I'd love to see my kids always choose the carrots and the apples, and stuff like that. But even when we put those things in the lunch, they come back. The kids go out and eat what they want, as do all Canadian consumers. So whatever we can do to look at the safety and health, that's our greatest challenge and our greatest interest.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Dr. Carrie.

Might I just ask one more question about this? Is that okay with the committee?

Dr. Pipe, I'm one of those free-grazing homo sapiens you referred to, and I just wonder, why don't we use a salt substitute? If we did, would that be as injurious to our health as using salt?

When they had the margarine-butter debate, they decided margarine was better, and now we're hearing that butter is better. So I'm not sure that we always make the right choices based on science.

What's your opinion of that?

[Dr. Andrew Pipe]

Just to be sure I understand the question—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

In terms of salt substitutes, are they as dangerous as salt, or could they be healthier for Canadians?

[Dr. Andrew Pipe]

There are a number of ways you can influence “mouth feel”, as the food scientists would term it, by adding things that enhance the flavour or increase the viscosity and the palatability of food. But overall, the significant amount of sodium found across a whole array of foodstuffs is such that this is a bit of a non-starter. I think it's far simpler to actually reduce the sodium content of foods, added as part of the manufacturing or processing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Ms. Leslie.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Oh, goodness, I wasn't expecting that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Well, this is your treat today. You're new to the committee.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

What a treat. It's because I'm new. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Ms. Tanaka. I wonder if you can help me understand why there are different sodium levels in something such as breakfast cereals in the U.S. versus Canada. Do you have information on that?

[Phyllis Tanaka]

No. That again would be information specific to an individual corporation and their corporate decisions. In large part, they develop their product profiles to suit the consumer audience they're addressing. But this isn't an issue that a trade association manages. That's individual corporate--

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

So it's not because of regulation or....

[Phyllis Tanaka]

It could be for a number of reasons. I really don't know why individual companies make those choices. It has to do, in large part, with the audience they're addressing, the consumers and the country they're working in.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks.

I'll open this up to whomever would like to answer. In October of this year Canada is hosting a stakeholder meeting for the World Health Organization specifically about sodium. October might as well be tomorrow; it's pretty soon. What things could we do here in Canada to actually show leadership before October?

[Phyllis Tanaka]

I'm not sure. The only World Health Organization meeting I know of in October is related, I think, to bisphenol A, not sodium. The working group hasn't been made aware of any pending meeting. That one I know of, because it's another file I manage. But on sodium, I'm not aware of any.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

As far as I know, we're hosting one in Calgary. There will be three stakeholder meetings on three different aspects of sodium. The final one is on iodization. The other two, as far as I know, are about reduction generally.

Have you any ideas on how we could come out, as the host country for this meeting, to demonstrate some leadership internationally?

[Phyllis Tanaka]

The working group is well placed to demonstrate leadership. We've been working very hard. It might look like we're slow, but we aren't. Within Health Canada, the leadership that's been provided to the working group will complement the World Health Organization process that will take place. So I look forward to that.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I saw a couple of others reach for their mikes.

[Dr. Mary L'Abbé]

I would just echo one comment. Given the work we've done, it might be a unique opportunity for other countries to learn what it has taken us two years to learn so that they don't have to go through the same phase. They can catch up. Just as we have learned from some of the experiences in the U.K. and Finland, they can benefit from some of our experience getting to where we are. That might be a useful role Canada can play at that meeting.

[Stephen Samis]

I was going to say many similar things. We can profile the work we have done through the working group, and we can also highlight some of the lessons learned.

The government could also begin an education campaign. It would be a great time to launch an education campaign to start educating Canadians about sodium and how to reduce sodium intake. That is part of the working group's deliberations. It would be a great opportunity to roll that out.