Health Committee on June 15th, 2010

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Wilson, you have been in the spotlight in recent weeks. I am now no longer the only one with questions about how Assisted Human Reproduction Canada manages its funds.

I am going to ask you a question that I put to you on February 12, 2009 about the cost of an international forum on reproductive tourism hosted by Canada. My question is the following: Do we know how much that meeting cost?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson, President, Assisted Human Reproduction Canada]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for the question.

Yes, you do recall very well; at my last appearance we were discussing the cross-border reproductive care forum. I can report to you the outcomes of that forum.

Are you interested, sir, in some of the outcomes of the forum, or is it strictly the financial aspects?

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I am talking about the financial aspects of the forum. You can appreciate that we do not have a lot of time.

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Certainly.

In terms of the financial aspects of the forum, the total cost, the direct cost, of the two-and-a-half-day forum, which involved 60 participants from 20 different countries, was $132,602. That included 31 non-Canadian participants.

We also did have some costs leading up to the forum for event planning and various contracts. Most of the contracts that we let for the forum were used, and have been used continuously, for other work and follow-up work to the forum in assisted human reproduction in Canada. That was approximately $100,000.

So our total direct and indirect costs were in the neighbourhood of $240,000, sir.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wilson.

In February 2009, I asked you a question about contracts with outside consultants. You told us that contracts with outside consultants were common. I understand that. You said the contracts were in keeping with Treasury Board guidelines.

Three former members of your board of directors resigned and mentioned the large number of contracts you had with outside consultants. Could you tell us how many contracts you have with outside consultants, what the total value of those contracts is and why you awarded those contracts to outside consultants, despite all the funding we give you?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

All our contracts are disclosed on proactive disclosure. Off the top of my head, I can't enunciate how many there were from the beginning of the agency to now. We can certainly provide that; they are on proactive disclosure.

Second, if you recall, this agency is barely three years old. When this agency was established, there was one employee. Obviously in a start-up phase as we are hiring permanent staff for the agency, there will be a time when we utilize contracts and contractors much more, because we do not have the permanent staff in place. I'm pleased to report that over the last three years the use of contracts has gone down and the number of indeterminate staff in the agency has increased, and that's the trend that we want to keep going as we finish our staffing process, commensurate with the regulations being in place.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You have undertaken internal audits into the contracts awarded in recent years.

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Yes, there certainly have been.

Our financial management is overseen...we work with Health Canada. Most small agencies in government do not have the large accounting and administration department that large departments would have. This is a matter of efficiency and being able to attract the correct expertise.

In terms of our financial management and audits, financial services are provided by Health Canada to the agency. They prepare financial statements. We share their financial resources; as well, they provide processing of our invoices and related financial transactions, which means that we prepare the invoices, and they then assure, through section 33, that everything is there and is appropriate.

In terms of the audit, we are audited through the Office of the Comptroller General. They have a process in place whereby they audit small departments and small agencies, and yes, we did have a horizontal audit in the fall of 2009. It was a horizontal internal audit of high-risk expenditure controls in small departments and agencies. What that--

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wilson. That answers my question.

I am also quite interested in the expenditures. We discussed them about a year ago. In three years, there was a total of around $77,000 spent on travel. Some checks showed that you travelled approximately six times in 2008, including at Easter and on Victoria Day, and five times in 2009, including on Labour Day. Could you tell us the reasons for those trips?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you very much for the question.

As the committee is aware, the head office for the agency is in Vancouver. In Vancouver we have our secretariat for the board, our policy capacity, and our planning, communications, and outreach function. The objective is to eventually move the majority of the staff to the Vancouver office, but in three years. We are in the transition; therefore, I do spend time at my Vancouver office to work with the staff there and do the business of the agency, sir.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Finally, Ms. Wilson, correct me if I am wrong, but we heard it was possible that the head office....

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Joyce Murray]

Mr. Dufour, you'll have to make that quick.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

...could be moved back to Ottawa. Are you able to confirm whether that will happen or not?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Madam Chair, thank you for the question.

I have no knowledge of any discussions about the office being moved back to Ottawa. It was situated in Vancouver by order in council before the agency was opened.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Joyce Murray]

Thank you.

Ms. Leslie is next.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Wilson, I'm actually going to pick up on Mr. Dufour's questioning about the work in Vancouver. I'm hoping that you can table your schedules showing the time you spent in Vancouver, the time that's listed in the proactive disclosure. Could you table your schedule with this committee? I expect that would be pretty soon, since it's just a matter of printing off Outlook.

As Mr. Dufour said, we know that three members of the board have resigned, and the minister, in questioning about this, insists that these members resigned for personal reasons. But I do know that these three members are very committed to the issues, so their resignations raise some suspicions for me. Coupled with that is the fact that, in addition, the communications manager has left a paid position, the ED of licensing inspection and health reporting, the ED of planning and communications...and you've also lost a policy analyst.

If you contrast this with the budgets over the past couple of years, we had $4.9 million in 2007-08 with seven full-time employees, and then $5.3 million in 2008-09 with 16 full-time employees. I am left with a lot of questions because things don't seem to add up for me. So to help me understand what's going on, could you please table the minutes of your board meetings and agendas with the committee? I understand from an interview on CBC that Dr. Hamm was saying those are imminently going to be on the website, but it would be great if you could table those with our committee.

I'd also like to ask if there are draft versions of the minutes.

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

Draft transitory documents are kept until they're approved by the board, and then we have a finalized set of minutes that is signed by the chair of the board and me after approval.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

So are there still draft versions of the board minutes...?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

No, there are not.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

There are not. Okay.

Could you also please table with this committee copies of the versions of the budgets that the board has approved, that have been brought to the board for approval?

Also, can you please table detailed budgets for 2007-08, 2008-09, and the current year?

Can I ask you if there are draft versions of those budgets?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

Again, Madam Leslie, no, because we've worked through the budget process. We brought the budget to the board and they've approved it.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

So no draft versions still exist. What happens to them? Are they just deleted or shredded or...?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

They're considered transitory documents as you're working through the preparation of a budget. Then we take the final document to the board. If there are any changes required by the board, we make those and bring it back to the board.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Okay, thank you.

I also understand from the interview that there is currently an audit happening for 2009-10, yet we have spending of about $5 million. It's also my understanding that AHRC is unable to fulfill its mandate right now because of the court challenge, so I'm left with a lot of questions about how we're spending $5 million while not fulfilling the mandate.

When looking at this audit for 2009-10, I really believe that we need to look at an audit of all the agency's operations for all years. Would you commit here to expanding that audit?

[Dr. Elinor Wilson]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

First of all, I would like to say that the agency and the board have taken fiscal management of the agency very seriously from the beginning. That is exactly why we have spent less than 50% of our allocated budget in all of the years we have been in existence.

We do not merely have a mandate for licensing, which is part of the piece we're unable to fulfill. We have a mandate for many other activities in the agency, and those activities have to do with ensuring that the prohibitions in force are followed up and ensuring that section 8--consent to use--regulations are followed up and being utilized appropriately by the field.

As well, there is a major mandate in outreach to bring the community of practice along so they are ready and prepared. We also have a mandate for education of the public, for international liaisons, and for making sure that we are in tune with what is happening in this area across the world.