Health Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[Dr. Frank Prato]

With due respect, Martin, we do not have any epidemiologists amongst us researchers here. That is a very sophisticated question that you've asked and it should be asked to a scientist who is knowledgeable in that particular field.

But Dr. Blank is correct in the sense that in presentations of this particular work by Dan Krewski, who is a Canadian in Ottawa here, a well-respected man, he feels the results show that there is no evidence of effects. Maria Feychting of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, another epidemiologist, has stated that she believes the data show there is no effect. Dr. Martin Blank is correct. Elisabeth Cardis has suggested that there may be some bias in the data and that additional studies would have to be done to determine the outcome.

The problem, again, I state, from my particular specialty and my observation of epidemiology, is that epidemiology tells you if there are effects of the order of at least 50% or 25%. In smoking studies, for example, it's easy to show by epidemiology that smoking causes lung cancer because the effect is 20 times higher. But with respect to these studies on epidemiology and cellphones, we always have error bars that seem to straddle the no-effect point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Dr. Prato.

Now we'll go to Dr. Duncan.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you. These questions will be for Mr. Palmer.

I'm assuming the committee has taken their concerns to the school. What specifically has the school done to respond?

[Rodney Palmer]

You'd have to be talking about the school board, which is the elected body. They have done absolutely nothing, and our requests from the beginning have been very reasonable. There are eight--

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

What are those requests?

[Rodney Palmer]

I'll tell you the only request we've ever made of them. There are eight microwave transmitters designed to power 30 computers. This isn't your home Wi-Fi, by the way; this is a much stronger system. They are throughout the school. Only one of them actually connects to eight laptops in one classroom, so the other seven are beaming microwave pulse radiation all day long into the children and aren't being used.

We, as an elected school council, which is a legislative body in Ontario, requested that the seven unused transmitters be shut down and the eighth be used freely as they like. We're not against Wi-Fi. We're against the frivolous use of this microwave radiation.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

How often have you gone to these people to make the request? Were they re-elected this past week? When will you go again?

[Rodney Palmer]

We went on multiple occasions. We went to our principal. We had private meetings with the superintendents. We had public meetings like this one with the entire school board on two occasions.

As I mentioned, I was a journalist for 20 years. I did a film of children describing their symptoms when they walked into the school and we played it on a 20-foot screen. Many of the elected trustees ignored it and looked down and didn't even look at it. They have absolutely no interest in the harm that's being caused by the Wi-Fi systems. And they always say, “Look here, we have a letter from Health Canada saying it's safe”.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Did anyone come in to look at what's going on in the school? Do we know what the level of illness was before this was put in and what the level of illness is after? Has there been tracking?

[Rodney Palmer]

That's a brilliant question. We proposed this question to the Simcoe County district health unit and told them we thought we had an illness cluster there. We believed we had a suspected agent causing it. The other two possible agents would be toxic mould or a sick building syndrome type of situation.

I have great experience in both of these. These are cement buildings with no mould problems, there hasn't been a recent renovation, and it's occurring in at least 14 different schools with identical symptoms.

So we now have a primary suspect, which is the Wi-Fi. This is what we presented to them and they failed to come. They said, “Because Health Canada says that's impossible, we refuse to investigate”.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

That was my next question. Have you looked at other possible reasons for the illness, for the health effects in the children? How have you looked at that? How have you explored the other variables? Who have you brought in to help you with that? Is it the trustees? Is it the health unit?

[Rodney Palmer]

Our trustees sat around a table and the majority of them admitted they didn't even have basic high school science so they can't understand this. Our argument is that if you don't understand it, you have no right to turn this thing on, but they have not offered to have anyone to come in.

As I mentioned, I have some personal and professional experience with toxic mould and sick building syndrome.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Have you brought in someone to look for mould?

[Rodney Palmer]

No. And is it my responsibility? I've become an epidemiologist here, tracking down the names. People phone me and say, “My little daughter was brought home from school because her heart was pounding so much the teacher could see it through her shirt”.

How is it that it's my responsibility to bring all these people in? I have gone to every level of government and every level of oversight has said it can't happen.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm going to ask the last question to all of you.

There will be a report after this. What recommendations from the scientists, from Mr. Palmer, and from Health Canada, do you want in the report this committee's going to write?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We only have one minute and I don't think that's possible, Dr. Duncan, with all due respect.

But what we can do if we run out of time--and we've just stopped the clock for a minute--is that you can get written submissions to the clerk and she will distribute them to anyone.

Who do you want to answer that question, Dr. Duncan?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I think I'll ask Dr. Muc. Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Dr. Muc, please.

[Dr. Anthony Martin Muc]

I'm sorry. Would you repeat what you're asking?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

The committee will write a report making recommendations about looking at this problem. We've talked about an expert panel and how long it'll be reviewed every so often. What other recommendations would you like to see this committee make?

[Dr. Anthony Martin Muc]

That's a very tough question. I can hardly presume. I would say to allow due process to continue, which is what's been going on, and allow Health Canada to continue its review process. SC 6 should not be considered a closed book. Science is never a closed book.

Dr. Blank, in speaking about the Interphone study, said there were indications approaching statistical significance and maybe reaching statistical significance. Dr. Prato raised the issue that you must have maybe a 50% increase in something before you can say that it's an established effect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, Doctor--

[Dr. Anthony Martin Muc]

Smoking and lung cancer is a factor of 20--and 300 if asbestos is involved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you all very much for being here with us today.

Certainly we've been hearing some wide discrepancies across the spectrum of this issue. I would like to ask Ms. Pieterson how our regulations regarding the exposure limits compare internationally.