Health Committee on Nov. 18th, 2013

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Would that be the total of the resources that are available for a municipality to develop its own enforcement strategies and what their particular community response might be? Would that be pretty well the total of what's available currently for them?

[Insp Jean Cormier]

Like I said in my opening remarks, enforcement is everybody's responsibility. Education is everybody's responsibility, so definitely making training available to their officers on a municipal level would certainly be a good start towards prevention.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I spent a lot of time on the United Way board in Hamilton. Substance abuse was a topic that would come up from time to time and that balance a police officer has between where do I make an arrest, look for a conviction, and where do I go to get that person help. I'm sure that's troubling to all officers when they are first starting to get involved with their careers.

[Insp Jean Cormier]

The training is not only for officers. It's also a community response with health professionals in the community, especially when it comes to prescription drugs. Obviously they have a role to play as well. Social workers would have a role to play. Different partners would have a role to play in that as well.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

We in the official opposition have had concerns about whether the resources provided to the police services in particular and other support services are adequate around the country. When you listen to how 80% of the folks who are incarcerated are going there with some kind of a problem, it's pretty clear in our communities we have significant problems for that high a percentage to be in that circumstance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

Excuse me, Mr. Marston.

If you have a quick question, please ask it. We're at five minutes already.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I thought it was seven minutes. My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

No problem.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I tend to go on, as you will find out when you get to know me better.

It's crucial the supports are there. That's all I'm saying. I'll just wrap with that because you have been so gracious, Chair. This is your first day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

Thank you. For that I'll say all the best to the Tiger-Cats this weekend.

Next up, Mr. Dreeshen. Go ahead, sir, for five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.

I have a couple of different things. First of all—and I'll come back to it—I did want to speak about youth and some of the issues that are associated with all types of drug abuse. I was a high school math and physics teacher for 34 years, and I've seen a lot of kids who have gone through the system. I've seen situations where we would have these fantastic grade 8 students coming in, and by the time they hit grade 12.... You would see people coming around to prey on them, and sadly four or five years later you would see them in that same cycle, so I think it's so important we find ways of breaking that.

Of course, this is simply one more added feature we have now as we have the prescription drugs. I'm sure parents would love to know exactly just what is happening in that regard because in a lot of cases the drugs are coming from the parents. I think this is one aspect of it.

I would like to go back to some of the testimony that was given earlier. Mr. Bhupsingh, you spoke about the 2011 national workshop that had taken place, this facilitation of a multi-sectoral discussion and different ways of analyzing misuse of pharmaceuticals.

In a lot of cases you also talked about seniors and issues from the kinds of drugs they are prescribed. I was curious as to whether or not they have gone to senior drop-in centres and that type of thing to make sure the message is getting through there as well.

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

I'll say a few words, and then I'll turn it to my colleague, Ms. Goguen.

Back in 2011 I think what we recognized—and some of my colleagues have spoken about this—is we have tried not to take just a supply side and a total law enforcement perspective on this. What we tried to do back in 2011 was really bring in other sectors. So we brought in pharmacists and doctors to really talk about what the issues were and develop what we think are novel ideas in terms of trying to attack this issue.

The complexity around it largely deals with the fact that we are starting from something that is a legal commodity, so it's quite different from the illicit marketplace. It requires us to change our thinking in terms of what we are doing.

Let me leave it there, and I'll let Ms. Goguen address a couple of the other points you inquired about.

[Taunya Goguen]

I know you mentioned seniors. In respect of the prescription drop-off days, we've noted a few examples in the booklet that we left. One, you had police at certain locations aligned with pharmacists in many cases, which gave the public an opportunity to speak to medical professionals and police and to drop off their unused or unwanted prescription drugs. But there are a number of other models out there. One other reference is a Medi Drop out of Cornwall. It was a post office box that was used to drop off prescription drugs. As we continued to look across Canada to find other examples, we heard of examples related to seniors' homes where nurses would go in and take back the unused medication.

There's a whole sector out there who are unaware that it poses a risk to seniors to be holding on to these types of medications. It can even be a risk to their own safety as some people might try to take advantage of them for their prescription drugs. Many of those other models are occurring in the country.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much.

Inspector Cormier, you mentioned that Corporal Chicoine could probably speak to some of the specifics. When you apprehend someone with a whole pile of different little pills in a bag, what is the process you have to go through to prove what you're actually dealing with, that the person didn't just lose the cap from their own prescription drugs?

[Insp Jean Cormier]

I will turn it over to Corporal Chicoine.

[Corporal Luc Chicoine, National Drug Coordinator, Federal Coordination Centre, Federal and International Support Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you.

The process on the street depends a lot on the officer's situation. Obviously, it's difficult, with your scenario, to give you a precise answer. A bag with miscellaneous pills would usually be seized or some phone calls would be made to doctors or pharmacists to confirm the person's identity as well as details of the prescription such as dosage and quantities. That would usually be the rule on the street.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Commissioner Head, when you're in the penitentiaries, if you find that an inmate has been hoarding medication that he or she should have been taking on a one-a-day basis, how do you address that issue?

[Don Head]

There are a couple of things we do. If the individual had been on a self-administering regime, we would do an assessment of whether he or she could be trusted with certain quantities of medication. If we find a prisoner has been hoarding medication, we would probably put that person back on what's called a direct observation approach. This means that the prisoner would have to take the medication in front of a staff member, more than likely one of our nurses, and then go through a routine to demonstrate that the medication had been swallowed.

We also have the ability under the legislation to do drug testing through urinalysis, and we've increased the number of urinalyses by over 20% since last year. We will use that on a random basis. Also, if we suspect individuals, under certain elements within our legislation, we can have them tested as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

Next up is Ms. Morin. Go ahead, please.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Mr. Cormier.

I am also interested in young people. You say that the non-medicinal use of prescription drugs ranks third among the most frequent forms of drug abuse by Ontario students.

How do they obtain those drugs? Do you have any statistics on that?

[Insp Jean Cormier]

We do not really have any statistics on how they obtain the drugs. They use different methods which have already been mentioned. They steal it from their parents' or grandparents' medicine cabinets. In some cases, the drugs are distributed by dealers, which leads us to conduct investigations.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

The Criminal Code has provisions concerning illegal drug traffickers, but what happens in the case of someone who is distributing legal medication?

[Insp Jean Cormier]

The distributors of illegal drugs are not our responsibility, but that of the Canadian courts.

The dealers you refer to would certainly be subject to the same charges as those that were already mentioned, that is to say drug trafficking, or possession with intent to distribute. The sentence would depend on a certain number of factors, for instance whether the accused had a criminal record, and his age. It would be up to the courts to decide.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I see.

Are there any provisions regarding parents who give their offspring access to medication from their medicine cabinet? You talked about students. So we are talking about youngsters in primary and secondary school. If the parents give them access to this medication, is that not negligence?

[Insp Jean Cormier]

There are no criminal provisions for such cases.