Health Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[Daniel David]

That is absolutely what we're saying. These flavours were based on demand. The industry was grown by former smokers who went on to vaping, and those former smokers want a range of different flavourings. Granted, some of the flavourings you mentioned are not hugely popular, such as cotton candy or the candy-type flavours. A recent survey shows that about 3% or maybe 4% of users use them. But they are not targeted towards children.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Do you support a ban on sales to minors?

[Daniel David]

Absolutely. We've been calling for it. Yes.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay. That's interesting.

There is a range of products available. There are one-time-use products and there are those that you recharge yourself.

NJOY, do you have both of those? Do you have disposable products that are for one-time use as well as refillable products?

[David M. Graham]

Yes, we have.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

And that would be true of your members for sure.

[Daniel David]

For the most part, our members don't really sell the disposable cigalite type of electronic cigarettes because they have been shown to be less effective. We typically sell the second- and third-generation types of device, which have been proven to be more effective.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

Coffee came up as an addiction. Anything that is ingested, of course, is going into your stomach. It's going to go first to the liver, where you have a completely different process of processing chemicals than you have in the lung. This beautiful organ with thousands of miles of blood vessels is a very powerful delivery mechanism for a whole range of products, which is why inhalers are used for delivering medications.

You would be aware that your products are being used by some people for vaping marijuana, for example.

[Shawn Wells]

Thank you for the question.

I don't really understand the question, because with nicotine vaping and marijuana, vaporization is an entirely different story.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Well, actually, there are videos online. You can see how to mix your product with propylene glycol, what temperature to heat it at, for how long, how to cool it, and how to prepare it.

[Shawn Wells]

Is that for marijuana?

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

That's for marijuana, yes, which is a big issue in our country—and worldwide, I'd suggest.

[Shawn Wells]

Right. They are legalizing marijuana in many states and provinces.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

You all went to great lengths to say that renormalization is not an issue, but you would be aware that neuromuscular patterning is an important part of addiction, is it not?

[Shawn Wells]

It is.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

It's a big problem for people trying to quit smoking. What do they do after dinner when they really have to get their hand up to their mouth? Neuromuscular patterning is a very important part of addiction and of breaking addiction.

[Shawn Wells]

Absolutely: it's the sensation from the e-cigarette.

The thing is that the culture is so anti-smoking that, it just doesn't make any sense. If you were with us in the culture, in the day-to-day operations, you would clearly see that this does not renormalize smoking.

Going back to your comment about coffee, the reason I raised that example is that it's such a low dosage that we're looking at. It's more harmful to walk outside on a regular day in the city than to vape these low dosages of nicotine.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Well, I think we're naive in this room if we think the rush to provide a product.... First of all, did one of you suggest that there are 13 million Canadians using vaping products already?

[Shawn Wells]

No. There are 13 million ever-smokers in Canada. Those are former and current smokers combined.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for clarifying that.

I think we're naive if we think that this product is only going to be extended to smoking cessation programs. There's a whole range of other products that maybe we haven't even begun to consider here. We know that young people have been known to experiment in their parents' medication cupboards. All kinds of things can be dissolved or put into solution with propylene glycol and vaped.

I know you're concerned about hypotheticals, but at this table we have to be concerned about the range of options that are out there. When people vape marijuana, I can tell you from the activists who have been in my office, there's no smell. You have kids who are vaping marijuana in front of their parents or their teachers—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

Mr. Lunney—

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

—and not having the smell associated with the product when it's combusted.

[Shawn Wells]

Are we discussing marijuana or nicotine?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ben Lobb]

I'm sorry, Mr. Wells. We're over Mr. Lunney's time, so we'll have to catch it in another round. Thank you, though.

Ms. Duncan, welcome to the committee. You have seven minutes as well. Go ahead.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

It's nice to see you, Mr. Chair.

To all the committee, it's nice to be here.

To the witnesses, thank you for coming in.

I'm going to pick up a bit on Mr. Lunney's questioning. ENDS have been marketed in almost 8,000 different flavours, and there is concern that they will serve as a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately, smoking, especially among adolescents. We know that experimentation with e-cigarettes is increasing rapidly among adolescents, with e-cigarette use doubling in this group between 2008 and 2012.

I know that both of you have been very clear that you think sales to children and adolescents of e-cigarettes with fruit, candy-like, and, I would add, alcoholic-drink flavours should be banned. Is that right?