Evidence of meeting #57 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was studies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anthony Miller  Professor Emeritus, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Frank Clegg  Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology
Magda Havas  Professor, Environmental and Resource Studies, Trent University, As an Individual
Dariusz Leszczynski  Adjunct Professor, Department of Biosciences, University of Helsinki, As an Individual
Rob Tarzwell  Clinical Assistant Professor, Faculty of Medicine, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you very much.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Thank you very much.

Next up is Mr. Wilks. Go ahead, sir.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I'll share my time with Mr. Richards, because he has to leave here after the first hour, I believe.

You perked my interest when you said police officers and radar because I did that for a year and a half.

Professor Miller, you mentioned in your opening remarks that an opportunity to provide greater safety to the public has been missed. You did explain a bit about it, but I wonder if you could articulate a little more on what we've missed and what we could move forward with in respect to recommendations to Health Canada and to the minister.

4:15 p.m.

Professor Emeritus, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Anthony Miller

When I think about Health Canada, I'm not saying this committee has missed. What Health Canada has missed is a proper scientific review of the data that would convince them—and I don't understand why they haven't been convinced—that the limits they have placed in their advisory limits are not sufficiently safe to protect the population. That's why I believe an opportunity to protect the population, and potentially to prevent a major cancer problem in the future, has been missed by Health Canada.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

All three of you talked about different types of cancer. The one that interested me most is the one around the ear because it seems to me that would be one of the more difficult ones to deal with if you attract cancer in that area. I wonder if the three of you could speak to that and the difficulties that may arise.

One last thing and then I'll turn it over to my colleague, Mr. Richards.

I have four grandkids and they have these things. What they do is they put them on their lap to play because that's the most convenient way to do that. What would your suggestion be on educating Canadians with regard to young children playing with their laptops or iPads on their laps because it's just convenient? They don't think any other way.

Is there something we should be encouraging them to put between where they're placing the iPad and the iPad itself?

Whoever wants to answer that and then Mr. Richards....

4:15 p.m.

Professor, Environmental and Resource Studies, Trent University, As an Individual

Dr. Magda Havas

Regarding the last question that you asked about the iPad, if they have the iPad in airplane mode, then there's no problem. They're not being irradiated. However, there is now a device that you can connect to your iPad and hook it up through ethernet. As long as you have ethernet in your home, you can actually use the iPad. There's information regarding that on the web. We did it with my grandson and he's now as happy as a dumpling because we allow him to use his iPad, but it's not wireless. We have it in the wired way.

4:15 p.m.

Professor Emeritus, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Anthony Miller

In relation to your first question, one of the things that has been clearly identified is that the brain cancers, the gliomas, the malignant brain cancers, are occurring in the position in the brain where physics demonstrates the radiation from a cellphone placed to the ear actually focuses. I think it's extremely clear and it's been very well documented.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

I have a couple of questions, so hopefully I'll have time for both.

I'll start with you, Dr. Havas. You mentioned, in response to one of the other questions, and also in your opening remarks, a couple of things that people could do to try to, I guess, decrease their exposure to some of the electromagnetic radiation.

I'm kind of curious because for many of us it's almost a part of our day-to-day lives to have to utilize this kind of technology or that kind of technology. I'm aware that obviously turning it off when you don't absolutely have to transmit—I'm not sure if I have the right technical terms—but the transmitting not taking place is advantageous. I would assume that when you're actually using the phone that you're being exposed to higher levels of radiation, so when you're carrying it and it's not in use, that's helpful.

Can you give us some sense as to what are some of the things that Canadians could be doing to limit their exposure, or things they could do to better protect themselves from any effects?

4:15 p.m.

Professor, Environmental and Resource Studies, Trent University, As an Individual

Dr. Magda Havas

Probably, the three worst culprits in the home are the wireless baby monitors, the cordless phone, and the Wi-Fi, because they're on all the time, whether you're using them or not. With the phone, you can have it wired. You can still buy wired phones. You would have to have multiple ones.

When it comes to the baby monitors and the cordless phones, in Europe the baby monitors are voice activated, which means there's no radiation until the baby cries. We've been trying to get these into Canada and we haven't been successful so far.

Also in Europe, the cordless phones that you have there do not radiate until you actually use them. We had them here in Canada. They were banned by the FCC and Canada simply followed suit. It's almost impossible to get them unless you go to Europe and buy them.

When it comes to Wi-Fi, you can simply connect the ethernet connection. There's also something called a home plug, which means that you can put the information onto the electrical wires in your home and use your computer in any outlet, so you can still get Internet access anywhere in your home without having microwave radiation.

April 23rd, 2015 / 4:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

Frank Clegg

I would like to add a comment. What we recommend to a lot of people is that sometimes you can't run the wires, so go to Canadian Tire and buy a timer that you put your Christmas lights on, your holiday lights, so at least while you're sleeping, while your children are sleeping, your body is in a state of repair and growth.

Just as you said, distance is your friend, so I have a book that I carry that has a little insert in it and I put my phone in there; guys don't usually carry books against themselves. Just be aware that distance is your friend and think about it at all times. Anything that's wireless in your house, do what you can to either eliminate it or reduce the amount of time that it's turned on.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Those are excellent suggestions. Thank you very much.

I hope I have just a little bit of time.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

You have about 30 seconds.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay, I'll try to be very quick.

Mr. Clegg, my understanding is that Industry Canada had taken some steps to try to better enforce safety guidelines with new cellphone towers that are being constructed. Do you know much about that and could you tell us your thoughts around that?

4:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

Frank Clegg

We're very aware and actually we're involved with part of that.

What Industry Canada did—and it was a good step forward—was to provide more notification, but all that does is provide more notification to communities when a cell tower antenna is being put into the community. They default to Health Canada for anything to do with the levels of radiation that come from it.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Ms. Fry, go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Honourable Hedy Fry Liberal Hedy Fry

This is like déjà vu. I think you asked a very important question, Dr. Havas. I don't understand. Inherent, for instance, in the medical ethos is to first do no harm, so the primary thing for a physician is the precautionary principle unless you see that the benefits outweigh the risks and you are prepared to do some harm in order to divert worse harm.

I've been listening to this so I called up my son and my daughter-in-law and I said, “Hey, you guys have a wireless baby monitor on my granddaughter's crib. I'm hearing this stuff and I think maybe you should take precautions and get a plug-in monitor or find a way to turn it on only when you need to”.

They said to me, “Oh, for God's sake, that is such a bunch of hokey stuff. The guidelines are clear, blah, blah, blah”, and of course I was almost accused of crying wolf.

If I couldn't convince my children that this is not reasonable and fair.... I think you said that it was 50 years before we got anybody to understand, in spite of evidence, that cigarettes caused cancer; and in the case of acid rain, it was 20 years. Surely to goodness we have learned by now that we shouldn't be taking that long. We need to see the harm that not acting on evidence sooner does.

Given that those blocking this the most are in industry themselves, and the fact that, let's be honest, governments have to balance economic growth and development and progress against harm to the greater good, and given that there is almost this conflict of interest between how governments currently operate and how governments could operate to protect people, how can we convince the public, which is completely addicted to Wi-Fi and to wireless devices, when they don't know anything else?

I'm addicted. I can't put away my stupid BlackBerry, so how do we convince people, because public awareness, obviously, as Frank said, must be a part of the recommendations? How do you put forward a public awareness program that will actually reach people and sink in without people saying, “Oh my God, everybody is being so hysterical about this”?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

Frank Clegg

I would make two comments, Dr. Fry.

I would say that people are smart, and when they have the right information, they act appropriately and they act responsibly, particularly parents with newborns.

What I've heard though, hundreds of times now, is that it must be okay if Health Canada says it's safe. They don't understand that it takes time for this information to be digested. As Dr. Miller said, we are befuddled as to why Health Canada isn't being more active. If the health authority in Canada, which is Health Canada, came out with very clear statements that said there is proof that there could be harm, so we should be careful and take a precautionary approach, I think you would see the majority of Canadians change what they do.

You also made a comment about industry. I have spent my life in industry. We go out and work hard to provide technology that is cheaper, faster, better. That's the way we work.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

That's a good thing.

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

Frank Clegg

But we also react when you challenge us, and we're not challenging industry right now. I think if you challenge my industry to come up with more effective ways to do it....

As I said, we have seen situations of cell towers going into the communities where they are thousands of times more safe than specified by Safety Code 6 because the community has made a fuss. We know the industry can do it, and the industry has demonstrated that.

We have technology in Europe. The industry is not jamming it or trying to go through the process to get it into Canada because they don't need to. The industry will respond, it will react, and it will act responsibly if we set the challenge in front of it. I think we're missing that opportunity to go to the industry to lower the standards on Safety Code 6. If we did that, industry would react and provide better products.

I mentioned the State of Iowa. They put in full smart meter functionality but with wired meters. That state chose to do that.

If you go to the technology industry and tell them they are no longer allowed to sell wireless tablet devices to schools, you will immediately have many solutions that are wired. So challenge. I'm asking the community to challenge my industry to do a better job.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I do think, however, there's this inherent conflict and problem because Industry Canada should be looking at how we can make sure that industry is progressive, is functioning, and we have economic development going on in the country. But that is not Health Canada's mandate.

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

Frank Clegg

No, it's not.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Health Canada's mandate is very clear. It is supposed to protect the health and safety of Canadians.

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, C4ST, Canadians For Safe Technology

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Surely to goodness I think we in this committee here, having heard the things we heard, and having learned—because I'm long in the tooth—from the things we had been fighting against, for such a long time, that cause great harm and eventually everyone.... Now we have seatbelts in legislation, and all of those kinds of things that protect people. It was a long fight.

For me, the idea that we should let Health Canada believe that it has to be true to its own mandate, which is the protection of Canadians, should be the overriding concern of this committee. I can tell you now it's something that I've taken seriously and it's something I'm going to do something about. I've lived through this stuff, as a physician and in all of my years as an environmental advocate, etc., and we have to do better than we currently do now.

I want to thank you for your presentation, actually, because it's clear and it's scientifically based. The evidence you talked about is something that we need to call for, which is a new review. Given that other countries have set the tone, France and Israel, and other countries, I think this committee should hear you very clearly. I know some of us are.

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Environmental and Resource Studies, Trent University, As an Individual

Dr. Magda Havas

May I give you some advice about your grandchild.

There is material you can buy that has silver in it that you can place over the crib. The wireless baby monitor will still work but the infant will be protected. There are companies in Canada that sell these products. You can still protect an infant—