Health Committee on Dec. 11th, 2018

[Dr. David Juurlink]

Yes, different people will give you different answers to that. I have some fears about the carte blanche legalization of all drugs and it's because we as a society aren't very good at moderating.

For example, if someone wants to smoke a joint on his back deck once a month, there's not a lot of harm that's going to come from that, but if it becomes a daily phenomenon, then that person has a problem, and a lot of addiction, 40% or 50% of it, is genetic. We don't know what causes it, so if we introduce into society the legalization of all drugs I think we're going to have a problem on our hands.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Do you know how many people died from alcohol, directly and indirectly, last year?

[Dr. David Juurlink]

Five per cent to 6% of all the deaths in the world are alcohol-related.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

You had 12 seconds left. It's not like you.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you all. You're dealing with this on a first-hand basis in a very personal way, especially you, Ms. Longstreet, in your situation. We especially appreciate your testimony, but all of you are dealing with this on a day-to-day basis, either in law enforcement or health care or as a family involved, and I want to say thanks from all of us for your contribution here.

Not many Canadians are seeing what you're seeing and it's a great thing that you're able to come here and tell us about it. Hopefully we'll be able to prepare a report that will help you do your jobs and help your families. I just want to say, on behalf of the committee, thanks very much to all of you, and good luck with your work.

We're going to suspend the meeting.

Yes, Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to move my motion again that was adjourned last meeting. I move that this committee call the Minister of Health to provide a briefing to the committee on the issue of forced sterilization of women, and also be present to answer questions from the committee.

I'd like to move that motion be lifted from the table and discussed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

My understanding is that the motion, really, is whether we want to continue the debate, because it was adjourned the last time. The motion is still on the floor.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

You said we were going to suspend for committee business, so are we suspended? Will people not on the committee leave the room and are we in camera?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

He had his hand up before I made the statement. He had the opportunity to speak.

Now you have the opportunity to speak.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

There's no debate on this motion. This is just yes or no. We're going to vote on whether we're going to continue the debate or not.

Thanks very much, witnesses. I'm sorry for this little derailment here, but this happens from time to time in our business.

I'm going to call for a vote on Mr. Davies' motion to re-engage the debate. All in favour of the re-engagement of the debate?

[Some hon. members]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

The question is, are we going to restart the debate because it was adjourned before? It's not on the motion. It's just whether we're going to restart the debate.

All in favour of restarting the debate?

I'm going to have to say it's opposed, because nobody voted in favour.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes, we did.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

We've now had two votes on this, and I'm not criticizing anybody on this. The first time it was a unanimous vote to continue on with Mr. Davies' motion. Now we've had a second vote, which is the opposite result.

I would say the first vote should count, and we should have our discussion with Mr. Davies in public and carry on with it. That's my opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I'm going to determine that there was confusion on the motion whether we were voting on Mr. Davies' motion or whether we were voting on reinstating the debate. There was confusion, so I'm going to call a whole brand new vote.

(Motion agreed to)

We're going to start Mr. Davies' debate again.

Mr. Davies is first.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

For my colleagues' benefit, the motion is this:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee invite the Minister of Health to provide a briefing, at the earliest opportunity, on the forced sterilization of Indigenous women in Canada.

Frankly, I think it's broader than just indigenous women. It has primarily been indigenous women, but not exclusively.

When the minister appeared before committee, I had a chance to ask her one question on this. Her answer was this:

I have to agree with all of your comments, Mr. Davies. It's an appalling situation. It's completely unacceptable to think that this is happening in this country. It's certainly a clear violation of human rights, and also, it's gender-based violence. Here we are, on December 6, of all days, talking about this—a very appropriate day to be talking about this. It's just simply not acceptable at all. Minister Philpott and I work in close collaboration. We are reaching out to provinces and territories in order to further this discussion, and not only provinces and territories, but medical associations that regulate these professions. We want to make sure we do all that we can to put an end to this.

She finished by saying:

I've indicated I still can't believe that in 2018 we're having this conversation, and it's happening in this country. Let me be clear: This is absolutely unacceptable, and we will do all that we can to ensure that it no longer occurs.

Mr. Chair, I can only second the very powerful comments of the minister. This is a really appalling situation. I mean, we have women in this country who, as late as last year, have been sterilized against their will, without their knowledge, sometimes forcibly. We know that this constitutes torture under international law, and we know that the Supreme Court of Canada stated the obvious—that this is illegal—but we know it's going on. I think that we need to do all that we can, and as a health committee, it's our responsibility to delve into this as an emergency issue. I think it starts with the briefing.

I think the committee should probably conduct a study on this some time in the new year. However, at this point, I think that it's time for us, as a very collegial committee, to simply ask the minister to come back on this one issue to brief us on what's going on, how this happened, what steps are possible, whether charges are being contemplated, who is making these decisions to sterilize, and whether they are being held accountable. There are a lot of questions that I think we, as a health committee, should look into because these are medical procedures that are happening in health care facilities and primarily to a population—indigenous women—who are a core federal responsibility.

I think the least we can do is have a briefing on this. At this point, of course, we're going to be looking at the new year, so that gives us a lot of time to get the minister here. I would do that. I'll just give notice now that when we do go into committee business, if we don't get a briefing from the minister, I will be moving a motion that the chair send a letter to the chairs of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs and the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, proposing a joint study on the forced sterilization of indigenous women and on government action to eliminate this practice, which I think everybody in this room would want to see happen. The reason for that is that this is an issue that crosses over three committees. It affects women, it affects indigenous women, and it affects health. All three committees have a slice of this issue. No one committee has it all. If it were just studied by the indigenous affairs committee, well, that doesn't take care of the women who are not indigenous. If it were just studied by the status of women committee, it would not have the health component, and if it were just studied by our committee, we wouldn't have the indigenous component. It's a thing where I think all three committees ought to have a role.

I'll conclude just by saying that this is a call that has been officially made by Action Canada for Sexual Health & Rights and Amnesty International, who have asked this Parliament, this committee, and members of Parliament to conduct that joint study.

Finally, under international law on the issue of coerced and forced sterilizations, they asked governments to investigate, to pursue charges and to seek redress for the victims.

I think we know now that not a single person has been charged in Canada—not that I'm aware of anyway.

I think it behooves us to investigate this thoroughly, and we can start by getting the briefing. I hope my colleagues will support my call for a briefing from the health minister. When we go into committee business, I will move my motion formally to have the joint committee study.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Our next speaker is Dr. Eyolfson, but you said that we know this is happening against women's wills and that it was forced upon them. I don't know that. It may be true, but to have a briefing by the minister under those assumptions.... I think we need to hear more than that before we hear from her. That's for myself. You're saying that we know that, and maybe others do, but I personally don't know it.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

May I just say, Mr. Chair, that I think the issue has been described as forced or compelled sterilization, so I think that's the whole premise of this. There are women coming forward. In fact, I believe there's a class action being filed by some 60 indigenous women who claim that they have gone into the hospital for various surgeries and come out having had tubal ligations and other procedures that they weren't prepared for and didn't authorize. I think that's the premise of the study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Dr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Don, for bringing that up. It is an important issue, and I think I can speak for all of us here when I say that we are horrified by this.

The minister has appeared in front of the committee. We know her feelings on it. We also know that this is being worked on by three different committees because it's also being worked on by Indigenous Services and by Status of Women.

What I'm asking for is a friendly amendment to this. As the minister has appeared, and since we know her feelings on this, we amend that instead we have the officials from Health Canada appear, to get their take on it. I think many of the questions we would have would be more of a technical nature, which the minister would refer to the officials anyway. I don't know the value of having the minister here when we've already asked her about this, but we could get some very useful information from Health Canada and other related government officials.

Would you be prepared to accept that friendly amendment?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Dr. Eyolfson.

I do think that as the head of the ministry and the person responsible to the Canadian public, the Minister of Health ought to be here to answer questions, but in the spirit of co-operation, I'm happy to accept the amendment and accept a briefing from the department officials if that's the will of the majority.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I was really quite surprised at the minister's reaction. She was so adamant about it. There was no hesitation on her opinion. I remember that she used the words, “appalling” and “unacceptable”. I was quite surprised that she came back so quickly on that. She's obviously concerned about this.

We now have an amended proposal to hear from officials on the forced sterilization of women.

Mr. Ayoub.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to make a quick comment in English if I may. I'll try.

Don, usually I'm very much in favour of all the amendments you're asking for, but for the joint committee, I'm not in favour of that. It's very complicated. I think that we are our own committee, and if we want to do a study on that, we have all the power to do that on our own. It's going to be quicker to answer that. I'm in favour also of the amendment for the officials to come before us. That's it.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chair, could I just respond to something that I might clarify?

I'm happy not to proceed on the motion for a joint study given the willingness to have a briefing from the department officials. Maybe we can see how that goes. I'm happy not to move that motion at this point if that's helpful.