Health Committee on May 9th, 2019

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, everyone, for coming to testify today. It's much appreciated.

Actually, I'd just like to have a conversation with Jeff Chalifoux. I was speaking with Albert McLeod, whom I guess you must know, in Winnipeg. We were talking quite a bit—because he was here in Ottawa getting an award for mental health and his work related to that—about the term “two-spirit”. The discussion revolved around the fact that when children are born, gender is not the most important thing in the Cree, Anishinabe or Ojibwa languages.

We all have a spirit. The question that I guess we were asking each other was whether you can have two-spirits, and that supposes that our spirit is sexual in nature.

Is our spirit defined by sexuality, or are we defined by something that goes beyond that?

[Jeff Chalifoux]

For me, I think our spirit is defined by our own sense of self and our space and place in our community. There was a point for me where I thought.... As I say, I just matured into my two-spirit self five years ago to learn more about the culture and get those kinds of teachings. However, I once viewed it as where I wanted to have romantic relationships with men and then with women. Then I came to realize that there are other genders and that—as I started to grow my own knowledge—for me, being two-spirit is not based on our sexuality.

It's really hard to explain. Auntie Albert would be the one to talk to on that one, yes.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

If it's not defined by sexuality, it's defined by something far greater.

[Jeff Chalifoux]

Yes, and for me, it's that sense of self. Again, two-spirit was an umbrella term created not long ago. It's not the actual traditional name within each cultural language.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Also, in the traditional Cree world view, a spirit wouldn't be like a person, per se. Spirits are something much more amorphous. They could change at any time. It's more like energy. It's not specific. It's not like we're the face of God. God is something completely different.

You're agreeing. Okay.

[Jeff Chalifoux]

To each their kind of understanding. Two-spirit, like I say, was just a term created at a point to encompass those who were lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or intersex. That's where that term was created.

Why? I wasn't there. I don't know the discussion that happened when the term “two-spirit” was created and why “spirit” was actually put into that. That's not something that I've learned yet in my brief five years of coming to understand myself and of identifying as two-spirit.

I have still much learning to come.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have just one more question, surrounding supports on reserve and in smaller rural communities.

What supports are there for people who are two-spirit or LGBT2Q peoples on reserve, and what are the health issues that come out of that?

[Jeff Chalifoux]

I have no lived experience in terms of living on a reserve, but having worked with a lot of others and a lot of members of our society, I do hear through their experiences what it's like. As I shared in my discussion, not just in the one particular incident with that individual, but when they do share about their sexuality or how they wish to express themselves or engage in romantic or sexual relationships, they are shunned from their communities and are forced to move, and do not get that support.

However, there are some nations out there that are very supportive. We look at Dr. Makokis in Enoch, close to Edmonton, who does provide that trans support, or support for the trans community, and has educated themselves and is two-spirit themselves and a lodge keeper.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Does that mean the institutions of the reserve are also engaged in that discrimination, the service providers, and would that be a human rights violation?

[Jeff Chalifoux]

My belief is that it is happening.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to go to Mr. Davies for three minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I know what has become a bit popular in the last couple of years has been this concept of taking a gender lens through legislation. Maybe you've heard of that federally. The idea is that sexism is so baked into our culture that we need to put every piece of legislation through that lens. However, it was just occurring to me that a gender lens is much more than binary. I just wonder what your thoughts are about expanding, say, the federal government's gender lens to be basically a sexual and gender minority or actually a gender and sexuality lens writ large. Has there been any work or any thought given to that?

It seems to me that the issue permeates all aspects of society and almost everything we do, yet I think we have a lack of awareness.

Mr. Ryan, I'll throw this to you.

[Prof. Bill Ryan]

You can see me getting ready.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. Well, it's a tough one.

[Prof. Bill Ryan]

I'm going to come back to an experience in Quebec. Since 2007, for the last 12 years, we've had what's called Lutte contre l'homophobie et la transphobie. It doesn't translate well, but it's a centre to confront homophobia and transphobia, and it's within the ministry of justice.

The legislation governing that particular centre says that it is to provide a mirror to look at legislation, programming, funding and policy related to gender and sexual minorities to make sure those are included in government initiatives, legislation, programming and funding.

It doesn't always work perfectly but it's a really important step, much like Status of Women or something such as that, that just keeps an eye on things and makes sure that when funding is announced or programs are announced, this reality is not overlooked. I think that's what you're talking about.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The other thing is a real messy question, but it strikes me that in our awakening sense of gender and our awakening sense of sexuality, this begins when we're three, four, five or six years old and it continues. Puberty hits us at around 11, 12 or 13 years of age. One thing that I've believed for a long time, but this study has cemented it with me, is that we need age-appropriate, mandatory sexual and gender education in our school system, starting in kindergarten, if we are to sensitize.

I mean in kindergarten, for four- and five-year-olds it's the boy-girl thing. It would seem to me that we have to address the sense of isolation and sense of belonging right then and there, and then as it develops through, as we get older and age.

Do you have any suggestions?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, you're out of time.

If you want to submit your answers to the clerk, that would be great.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Sorry.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I could listen to more testimony, but we're at the end of our time. We have some remaining committee business to do.

Thank you to all the witnesses for really excellent testimony.

We're going to suspend. That means we have to clear the room of every non-committee person rather quickly. Again, thank you for your testimony.

[Proceedings continue in camera]