Evidence of meeting #154 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sterilization.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bill Casey
I call the meeting to order.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is meeting 154 of the Standing Committee on Health and our last meeting for this Parliament.
We have a jammed schedule here today. Actually, we have a vote. We understand the bells will ring at 5:30. I'm seeking unanimous consent to go to 5:45.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bill Casey
Thank you very much. We'll go to 5:45.
Our first witness is Commissioner Brenda Lucki, commissioner of the RCMP. We have her here for half an hour.
Thanks very much for coming on short notice. We appreciate it very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bill Casey
It's a short round so we're going to have one question from each party. We're going to start with....
Sorry, Ms. Lucki, you have an opening statement of 10 minutes. Go ahead.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of this committee.
Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for inviting me here to speak today.
I want to start by saying the RCMP takes all reported allegations of criminal activity and incidents very seriously and we are committed to continuing to provide services that are focused on the safety of our communities.
Such allegations could include the forced or coerced sterilization of women.
Following a consultation of the RCMP's contract divisions through their respective commanding officers, to date, we have no allegations on file for forced sterilization that were found to be reported to the RCMP directly. I've also taken the steps to reach out to the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police for assistance in raising the awareness among all the other police agencies. A bulletin was disseminated by the CACP to its member agencies and a report is expected in the near future. There are quite a few of them so they're still waiting for results.
It's important to note that the investigation of any allegations of forced or coerced sterilization would fall under the mandate of the police of jurisdiction. Therefore, any evidence of criminal activity should be reported to the local police of jurisdiction where offences are alleged to have taken place so that they can be properly investigated.
The RCMP proactively works with communities to identify, prioritize and solve problems, as well as to build trust and faith in the RCMP as a police service.
This collaborative approach is based on the philosophy that prevention is a core responsibility of policing, where decisions are evidence-based and responses should be community-led, police-supported, sustainable and flexible. The RCMP has been part of these efforts in many communities across Canada and will continue to reach out with professionalism and compassion to enhance trust with the communities we serve.
I have to add that compassion is one of our core values, but honestly, as part of our modernization, I don't think compassion is good enough. I think we need to bump it up to empathy. It falls in line not just with reconciliation but.... If we can all learn—when I say “we” I'm talking about my organization—to walk a mile in somebody's shoes, I think we would have a better understanding of others' circumstances and they would be treated differently if we had that understanding. Part of this is teaching people from the day they get into the organization and reteaching everybody along the way. In some effects, we've introduced at the training academy, for example, the Kairos blanket exercise, which is one way of teaching more empathy and more history.
In addition to contributing to a safer and healthier indigenous community, it's one of the key priorities of the RCMP. Protecting all Canadians from criminal activity is of the utmost importance. We're committed to protecting our communities and to achieving reconciliation with indigenous communities and partners through a renewed relationship built on the recognition of rights, respect, mutual trust, co-operation and partnership.
I would be happy to answer your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bill Casey
Thank you very much.
That's the shortest 10-minute opening statement we've ever had.
We'll go right to our questions with Mr. Ouellette.
You have seven minutes.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you very much, Commissioner, for coming here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to question you on these very serious allegations concerning forced sterilization of women, especially indigenous women, in Canada.
Obviously, you said that no complaint has ever been made to the RCMP.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Perhaps I should be more specific. When we go back into our records, we can go back only so far. Certain things are purged along the way, according to our archived records management system, so the looking back is looking at anything in the electronic world. We tried various keywords in that system to try to find anything that we could, but we didn't find anything.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
Is there a statute of limitations on the sterilization of women? If someone came forward and said they had a complaint, would you be able to say, “That happened 20 years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago”, or another number, and say, “We can't investigate”?
Commr Brenda Lucki
It depends on the circumstances, of course. We don't have, in the Criminal Code, anything that deals directly with forced sterilization. The law that we use is aggravated assault, or there are other kinds of criminality, depending on what the victim brings forward in their statement or the review of the events. For an aggravated assault, no, there isn't a statute.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
Obviously this has been in the media for a number of years now. It's been out there. If the allegations that are being debated in society are false, I believe that deserves to be investigated. If those allegations are true, that deserves to be investigated. One, if they're false, obviously it's in the media. This undermines and destroys people's reputations: doctors, nurses and social workers. If it's true, these are very serious allegations.
If at one point someone has already raised it in the media, at what point would the RCMP, our national police force, start investigating? What would be the trigger, the moment you would say that this is something serious enough for us to take a deep look at and send an investigator to have a conversation, at least, with a lawyer?
Commr Brenda Lucki
It's difficult to answer that question. When it was brought to my attention as the commissioner, of course we did all the searches and we also reviewed the report from the Saskatoon regional health authority.
There's more work to be done, though. I notice that at one point—I think it was in some of the minutes—there was mention of several victims, with names of defendants. That has never come to our attention, so we have to go looking for that. Of course, we might deal with privacy issues when we deal with health care, getting information through the health care system. Of course, it's encouraging people to come forward. For anything, a crime against a person, the rules always seem to be a bit more difficult in the sense that it's a very personal type of crime. It's not so easy for people to want to come forward, but we definitely need to look into it to see if we can get names of victims and see their willingness.
I noticed, in the minutes that I looked through, I think it was Ms. Francyne Joe who talked about informed choice. Informed choice also works with victims of crime, in the sense that not everybody wants to come forward when it comes to such a personalized crime. That's why it's probably been unreported.
I'll be honest. There's also—and it's mentioned again in the report—the trust level with police and coming forward for such a personalized crime. Some people might not even realize that they thought it was a crime, depending on the circumstances in how that situation evolved. Now we have to look at it and say, “Okay, is there a list of victims we can talk to, reach out to, to see if they want to come forward to give statements?”
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
What is the level of trust right now between indigenous peoples and the RCMP in Canada? Have you been keeping statistics on that and understanding surveys about that? Obviously that's a very important consideration. If someone's not willing to make a complaint, why are they not willing?
Commr Brenda Lucki
I think it varies and it varies in all agencies. That's the reason we have a big focus on reconciliation. Of course, there are various reports that have come out. We always look at things that we can do better. It depends on the community. If you go to certain communities, trust levels are a lot higher, and in other communities, not so much. I guess it depends on the personal experiences of the people in those communities.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
You obviously are trying to build a relationship with indigenous communities, but the history of the RCMP was one also of suppression of indigenous peoples.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
That's a point of view.
Genocide is one of the things that has come up in the last little bit and this is a very serious accusation. Obviously you have a very important role in the maintenance of law and order and the protection of human rights.
Do you believe the RCMP should be taking more of an active role in investigating and ensuring that if crimes have been committed against women in this country, they are afforded the full protection of the state against those who continue to perpetrate those crimes?
We even heard from a witness that these crimes are still ongoing, or at least there are allegations that they are still ongoing.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Any crime against any person needs to be investigated. Whenever we get complaints, we take it to the full extent, even if we are looking at third party complaints for certain crimes with domestic violence and crimes against the person, because it's not so easy for people to come forward.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
If someone who is a third party made a complaint, would you accept that as a way of moving an investigation forward?
Commr Brenda Lucki
In terms of moving the investigation forward, where it goes from there is dependent on the willingness—
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
For instance, if this committee asked you to investigate this in a more in-depth way, would you then start investigating or would we wait for someone else to come forward?
Commr Brenda Lucki
We are starting to look into trying to get, for instance, names of victims, because obviously there are names of victims in the civil proceedings.
Commr Brenda Lucki
In a letter that I received from MP Davies, I noticed that he made mention of names of victims and defendants. With privacy issues, I'm not sure whether we're even allowed to have those lists, but of course, if we were allowed to have them, that would definitely be a starting point.