Health Committee on June 15th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Ladies and gentlemen, I call the meeting to order, and I welcome our guest, Mr. McKinnon.

We have a little housekeeping to do here on a couple of things.

We have two panels today. We have the proponent of Bill C-224. I'm going to propose that he speak for five minutes and that we then have a 28-minute round of questioning. Then we're going to take a small suspension and have our second panel. I propose that they have five minutes each, and that we have rounds of questions for 51 minutes.

Does everybody agree with that? That's a little change from our normal format, but we have two panels.

All right. Mr. McKinnon, the floor is yours for five minutes, and then we're going to question you for 28 minutes.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'm looking forward to it.

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you and the committee for so proactively taking up this study so we can deal with it before we adjourn for the summer.

The bottom line is that the Bill C-224, the good Samaritan drug overdose act, is intended to save lives. We need to find a way to save precious time and get this bill through the legislative process, and this proactive study is certainly a help in that direction, because we need to start saving lives and preventing the deaths of countless Canadians. I recognize your interest and effort in moving this legislation forward.

This bill is a simple amendment, as you know, to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. In order to save lives, we are adding three paragraphs that will have a great impact. It provides an exemption from prosecution for simple possession when a reasonable person believes that emergency medical assistance is required in the event of an overdose. It does not provide protection for offences such as trafficking, or outstanding warrants, or any of a myriad of other possibilities. It's focused simply on possession.

We kept it focused so narrowly because we felt, and continue to feel, that extending it too far and too broadly potentially would make it difficult to pass. Keeping it sweet and simple, we believe, is a recipe for success, besides which, extending the exemptions would require considerably more study and is probably beyond the scope of what a private member's bill should try to accomplish.

At second reading, I spoke of two young men whose lives ended far too early. They died because no one called 911 soon enough. No one called for help for one reason only: they were afraid that they would get into trouble. They were afraid that they would get charged with possession or have to deal with the police, and they were scared. Delay of course in a situation like this means death.

It's a story that is far too common. The largest barrier to calling for help during a drug overdose is fear of criminal prosecution for simple possession. Bill C-224 intends to remove that barrier. This bill is intended to make it okay for you to call for help.

Later today, you will hear from the Waterloo Region Crime Prevention Council, whose report factored very heavily in my own presentation earlier. In their 2012 report on the barriers to calling 911, they reported on a study showing that 46% of the respondents, in the absence of a law such as this, would either not call for help or would call and run. That's problematic in a number of ways. Certainly, if they call and run, for example, there's no one left to help the first responders find the person or to inform them of what the problem is that they're trying to deal with. Again, it means delay, and it potentially means death, and that's tragic. That's why we've introduced the Bill C-224, the good Samaritan drug overdose act, which is now before this committee.

We have had feedback from law enforcement agencies and first responders who are very, very supportive of the principle of this bill. In fact, Port Moody's chief constable recorded a video, complete with logo, uniform, and all that stuff, in support of this bill. A number of first responders—paramedics, firemen, and so forth—have also signified their support. That support also includes faith-based organizations in the community, which have given similar testimonials, and politicians from all levels of government, including the municipal, school board, provincial, and federal levels.

Governments across Canada have expressed their support. I've received letters supporting this bill from the health ministers of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia. Of course, as mentioned earlier in previous speeches, many states in the U.S. have legislation of this kind. At last count, 36 states plus the District of Columbia have similar legislation on the books, and these laws work. In 2010, the State of Washington passed similar legislation. A study in that state reported that 88% of respondents said they would call for help because of the protection in law.

Currently, overdose deaths are happening at alarming rates. For the period of January to May 2015, in British Columbia, we had 176 deaths, and last week, the B.C. Coroners Service said that this year, in the same time period, there were 308 deaths. That's over two a day, on average.

I think I'm out of time, so I'll call an end to it right there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much, and thank you for the bill. I'm sure we're going to have some interesting questions.

Dr. Eyolfson, you're up.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank Mr. Kang for surrendering his time so that I might ask some of these questions, given that I've been involved in this bill as well. Thank you for bringing this bill up.

The first question I have is whether you would agree that the sooner this legislation is enacted and implemented, the sooner it would save lives.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Absolutely. One of the things I've come to realize since coming to this place is how terribly long it takes to get anything through Parliament. The sooner we can bring one of those steps to fruition and move it along, the better. The sooner we can get this proclaimed into law, the sooner we'll start seeing lives saved.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right.

Would you be able to comment on the stigma of drug use and how that can be a barrier to calling 911?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I've certainly seen that in and around the community. People are afraid to call the police and have themselves become known persons. It inhibits them from making those calls. There's a general fear of being involved with police, with the authorities, in case they get charged with an offence. There is definitely a stigma.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Do you think this legislation will lessen some of that stigma?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I don't think it will lessen that stigma, but I think it will reduce the fear of calling 911 for help.

There's a societal stigma about drug use, but there's also the fear of being charged, the fear of consequences. This is really orientated more towards the fear of consequences, the fear of being charged and being introduced into the legal system in a bad way. I think it will help with that issue, absolutely.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

We've heard about a rise in fentanyl-related deaths in British Columbia, in particular, and how a state of emergency was actually, a short time ago, declared. How urgent would you say the situation is elsewhere in Canada?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have data for British Columbia. I have anecdotal information through the newspapers and so forth for the rest of Canada.

There was recently, I believe, a big bust for W-18 in Edmonton with enough product there to kill the entire population of Alberta many times over. We have seen drug overdose deaths across the country, in rural communities and urban communities, from coast to coast to coast. I think it's a real problem everywhere.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Do you have any concerns that a bill like this would encourage people to do illicit drugs? Do you think there would be any possibility that drug use would be increased because of this?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Absolutely not. This really only addresses the emergency cases where people are in circumstances they didn't expect and their buddies, their friends, the people they're socializing with perhaps, are overdosing. All the symptoms are fairly obvious, I understand. They know when their friends are having problems. Many times in those kinds of circumstances, they just freeze up or they dither and they text and try to do anything they can to solve it on their own, but they don't call for help, because the authorities might get involved. It's not conducive to a successful outcome.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Dr. Carrie and Mr. Webber are going to share their time.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Do we have enough time for two rounds between us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

You have three and a half minutes each.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

First of all, I want to thank you, Ron, for bringing this issue to the committee. We supported your coming to committee with this issue.

I do have some important questions. First of all, in your opening statement, you said people who have a fear of simple possession may not report it. When you're talking about simple possession, it kind of minimizes that because the drugs these people are using, would you say they're dangerous drugs?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Absolutely. The fact that people are overdosing from them certainly underscores that they are dangerous.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

The idea would be to have people who are using these drugs get some help, right?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Correct.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

That's the whole idea.

I'm a little concerned. You mentioned that Washington state has had a law since 2010, right?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

That's my information, yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I think you said 86% would call if they knew that this was in place. What actual evidence do we have in jurisdictions that have these good Samaritan overdose laws to support the belief that the laws are actually increasing overdose reporting?

What I'm talking about here is the actual reporting, because we could say that 86% of people surveyed would call. Who are we talking to? To whom are we asking those questions?

My bigger question is, did people actually call? Are we seeing an increase in the reporting, or is it just people saying they would if they weren't going to get prosecuted?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

In the study I mentioned, I think it was 88%, but it was a study among drug users, that they would make that call. That was the number that was reported in the Waterloo Region Crime Prevention Council report. The report mentioned that addressing the barriers of calling 911 is the number one cause. They cited numerous statistics.

I can't table that report at this point because it's only in English, but there have been calls for this type of legislation by the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition and the City of Toronto. In fact, this very committee in 2014, in its last session, issued a report recommending that such a policy be considered.

I heard a rumour that there's a report coming out from New York imminently that will show this kind of information, but I haven't seen this report.