Health Committee on Sept. 27th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

We have a motion on the floor. I'm going to call--oh, sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Kang.

[Darshan Singh Kang, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Chair, I think we can put it off until Thursday and we can come back....

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Put it off until Thursday?

[Darshan Singh Kang, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Yes. Then we could requestion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Oliver.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

In terms of committee process, instead of the content of the motion, I'm wondering if we could take the first half hour of our committee time on Thursday to make sure we provide feedback and see if we can come to consensus on a motion or vote on a motion. Then we'd have something to give to the PBO maybe half an hour after we start. That would give everybody around the room a chance to come back with some edits.

I'm not sure how we would consolidate it in half an hour of debate. That's my problem.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

As Don was saying, I think this is a good start, but one of the things we even heard today from the representative from Quebec was about the jurisdictional issues, the fact that the provinces take the lead in the delivery of health care and use different formularies. This is a lot of information to be asking the PBO to give us within 48 hours.

It's good information and I think it's information that we do need. As I was saying, we need up-to-date statistics, we need the demographics, we need to find out which Canadians are mostly affected, and I think it's a good idea, but perhaps we could ask the PBO to provide a cost estimate and then maybe we would suspend it until we get this information. Then we would start our opioid study immediately, because I know we were able to put in witnesses from last Friday. Pharmacare can be put on hold until this report from the PBO is actually given to committee, and it will help us fine-tune where we're going with the study that we're currently undertaking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

That's a good suggestion. We're going to start the opiate study next Tuesday. Later, after this discussion, we're also going to talk about the work plan for pharmacare. There's been a suggestion that we might want to have fewer meetings, and we're going to talk about that.

Also, our travel has been denied. I got a notice as well saying that all travel is denied for all committees from now until well into 2017, so I don't think we can count on going across the street, much less to the places we were thinking to go. The analysts have come up with some alternative witnesses we might bring in to give us the same information, or part of it, that we might get by going to the places. We're going to talk about that work plan in a minute.

[Darshan Singh Kang, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Mr. Chair, when the PBO comes here, I don't think we'll be able to ask him all the questions and get all the answers. In this motion, we will get whatever we can from the PBO, and if we need to, we can expand it and get all the information in writing later on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

All right. The last suggestion from Mr. Oliver was that after digesting this for a couple of days, we'd take the first half-hour of the next meeting to talk about it and make amendments to it if anybody feels there should be amendments. I detect there's a consensus for the principle of the motion. There may be some things that have to be tweaked, but we'll do that.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

I'm not understanding that the PBO will give us any answers next meeting. We're talking about just coming up with a set of questions that we can give to the PBO, maybe discuss the methodology of questions, and then send the PBO away for some period of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Exactly.

Go ahead, Mr. Oliver.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I want to go back to process. I'm wondering if we could pass the motion so that we're moving it forward. If amendments need to be made to it, we do those first, though. We could consider amendments first thing Thursday morning. It means the motion has to be reopened, I guess, but we get something on the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Somebody just advised me that we should probably wait until we hear from the PBO and then make the amendments after that, because there may be some things they can't do and won't do. Maybe they have some ideas too.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We'd be tabling this as a guideline to him of where we'd like the study to be going. It would indicate a general direction, and we would confirm it after we meet with him.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I don't think this really has to be a motion. To utilize the advice that was given to you, perhaps we could let them come here and see what they're presenting to us. Some of the holes in this motion may be filled. We could certainly have a list of questions that we could give them to go back to after that time. I think the time that they're here is very valuable. I don't think we need to go over modifications at that time. Why don't we just leave this the way it is and take the good advice that you just received?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I want to make sure I'm clear. I don't understand the PBO to be coming here to be testifying about anything. The PBO is coming here, at our request, for us to discuss questions and methodology. We're really giving the PBO instructions, I guess in consultation with the PBO, about the information that they can go and study and then come back. If that's the case, then I think the analysts are quite right.

When I think about it, John, maybe the half-hour should come afterward. We pass this motion, we put it to the PBO, and each of us has a chance to talk to the PBO about methodology and questions. I think it gives us a couple of days to see if there's something here that we might want to add. It looks pretty comprehensive to me, but there might be one or two things that we would like to put to the PBO.

Then after the PBO leaves, we can decide if there are any modifications to this that we may want to make, and then we send it off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Are you proposing we pass it now, and then amend it after our meeting with the PBO?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. Leave half an hour at the end of the PBO meeting, dismiss the PBO, and then, after hearing what the PBO has said, discuss how we might want to modify this list, if at all. It also gives those of us who haven't seen this motion a chance to think about it over the next day or two and figure out what we might want to tweak on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I'm going to put the question to the committee. We'll vote on the motion under the understanding that after we meet with the PBO, we might want to amend it.

All in favour of the motion, say aye.

(Motion agreed to)

We passed the motion, but that's under the understanding that we're going to hear from the PBO. If we need to make amendments...yes, Mr. Davies?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I didn't mean to interrupt, but I know we're running out of time and I wanted to ask the committee for their feedback on how many meetings we intend to allocate for the opioid overdose study.

I tried to be as crisp as possible and I think we got it down to six, but I could easily add another four or five witnesses. I didn't want to put too many, because I don't know how long the study will go on. I was going to suggest that after talking to my colleagues, it seems we need at least four meetings to hear witnesses.

I'll tell you my idea for a study. I'm not proposing we take time and write a long study summarizing the evidence. What we should do after hearing from the witnesses is take maybe half a meeting, or even do it by writing, and say that the committee hereby recommends the minister take the following steps, and then just list them. I don't think we need big introductions. The purpose should be to give crisp and helpful recommendations to the government as to what they might want to consider doing about the crisis.

If that's the case, we may need a fifth meeting to do that, or only part of a fifth meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I have a proposed work plan for the opioid study, but I need unanimous consent to distribute it. It's only in English.

Do I have unanimous consent to distribute it?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Okay, we have a work plan.

I'm going to ask our analysts to outline the features.