Evidence of meeting #47 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sex.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kathleen Hare  Doctoral Student, Department of Language and Literacy Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Mary Anne Layden  Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual
Jacqueline Gahagan  Professor, Interim Director, Assistant Dean, Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

I call the meeting to order. This is our first meeting on M-47.

I also want to say that we tabled Bill C-277 this morning, and that went smoothly. Congratulations. That's the eighth report of our committee.

We are starting M-47 today, and we have a bit of a change in our witness list from the schedule. One witness is not able to be here, for personal reasons. I understand we are also having technical difficulties with Pennsylvania.

In any case, we're going to start. We have Professor Jacqueline Gahagan, interim director and assistant dean in the Faculty of Health Professions at Dalhousie University. Welcome. We also have Kathleen Hare, doctoral student in the department of language and literacy education at the University of British Columbia. We have both ends of the country represented here, and we are very pleased to have you.

Eventually, we are hoping to have Dr. Mary Anne Layden, director of the sexual trauma and pychopathology program in the department of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, but we have not successfully made the hookup yet.

I want to welcome you to our committee. Each of you has a 10-minute opening statement.

I understand that Ms. Hare is going to start.

11 a.m.

Kathleen Hare Doctoral Student, Department of Language and Literacy Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Thank you very much for the invitation to speak here today. It is an honour.

I'm speaking to you today about revisualizing porn, how young adults' consumption of sexually explicit Internet movies can inform approaches to Canadian sexual health promotion.

I conducted this research study with Dr. Gahagan and two other scholars as part of my master's degree in health promotion at Dalhousie University.

Our presentations are connected. I'm going to discuss the research study specifically, and then Dr. Gahagan will present a broader analysis of pornography as a public health issue.

The most effective place to start is by reviewing the broader research that orients this work and shapes my thinking on the subject.

As might be anticipated, the research literature on this topic is complex. How ideas of pornography, sexual health, and violence can even be defined to start these types of conversations is subject to debate in the body of research on this topic. This is replicated in non-academic settings. Adding to this picture, the overall body of research findings on this topic is fuzzy.

The predigital decades of research resulted in extensive but inconclusive findings on the overall health impacts of pornography. On the topic of violence and pornography specifically, the most that definitively could be said was that for some people exposure to some types of pornography under certain conditions could increase misogynistic views. However, recently, research in this area has resurged with the emergence of highly accessible and anonymous online pornography. This is partially because this is theorized as having the potential to particularly impact youth.

Broadly speaking, current research in this area is often focused on two main areas. One is behavioural changes, which is often referred to or talked about in terms of sexual risk-taking and gender-based violence. The other area of primary focus is the psychological or physiological harms. This is often more framed in addiction and those types of discussions.

While there are some trends such as earlier engagement in sexual activities, similar to the predigital era, many of the findings are inconsistent and contradictory. Adding to this is risk and addiction-focused research. While they are the primary areas of focus, they are just part of the health impacts of the porn research landscape.

There is significant research being done from other theoretical perspectives about how pornography, either as different genres or as an entire spectrum, that is, using the spectrum of pornography as a unit of analysis, can additionally impact health, including its perceived appeals and benefits.

For instance, there's a long-standing history of LGBTQ communities using pornography to explore sexual activities in a non-heteronormative manner. Some research indicates that couples use pornography to communicate about sexuality. Even further research still shows that young people use pornography to learn about the spectrum of sexual expressions. These ideas can also provide important inroads into thinking about pornography as a public health issue.

Returning to our study, while researching the impacts of porn, as we were doing, we thought it was essential to consider both the potential harms and the negative health impacts for obvious reasons. However, we also thought it was necessary to recognize the expansive diverse nature of pornography and the range of experience that individuals may have with it.

Therefore, for our study, we thought it was more effective and more reflective of people's experiences with it to conceptualize the relationship between pornography and sexual health in more comprehensive terms.

With this information in mind, we conducted a qualitative study designed to explore the relationship between sexual health and pornography in a holistic and person-centred manner. We understood pornography as depicting sexual activities used to create excitement. Our research questions were the following: Do urban heterosexual men and women youth perceive the consumption of sexually explicit Internet movies as influencing their sexual health? If so, how? How do these findings inform Canadian sexual health promotion?

To answer this question, we focused on investigating six constructs of comprehensive sexual health—sexual knowledge, sexual self-perception, sexual activities, gendered-partner relations, perceptions of sexuality, and general well-being.

We interviewed 12 youth—six men and six women—aged 19 to 28. They had education levels that varied from high school to graduate school, and they self-identified as a variety of racial or ethnic backgrounds.

Once we gathered this data, it was analyzed both within those six measures or constructs to identify categorical findings, and then also across those six constructs, to get at larger emergent themes.

In terms of the findings, we can discuss the six measures and the three emergent themes in more detail during the panel, if there's interest, but at this point I'm going to offer a synthesis of this research as it pertains to this committee. There were two particularly notable messages out of the research.

The first one was on the individual level. It was that participants perceive pornography as having both positive and negative influences on sexual health, and these influences were viewed as being interconnected and at times contradictory with each other.

These findings or results really reflected youths' descriptions of how the health impacts of pornography can't always be defined as separate targetable effects or physical manifestations. Rather, as illustrated by the youth, sexual health includes both the biological factors as well as more complex embodiments about the wider social, political, and popular discourses about sexuality.

This aligns with other research suggesting that there aren't as many straightforward evidence-based answers as some may argue, or as maybe we would all hope, and also that sometimes, when you're coming across these very straightforward answers, it's really important to consider the perspective and the scope of the perspective used to generate them. Especially relevant, I think, for this context, it also highlights the importance of using Canadian data in a Canadian context.

The second level, and perhaps the one of most salience for this committee, is that the Canadian youth in this study actively engaged with pornography as a multipurpose, comprehensive sexual resource in a context they viewed as devoid of alternatives. The youth reported that there are limited opportunities in both institutional forms of sexual knowledge exchange and in mainstream society to really learn about the positive aspects of sexuality, and so they use pornography to fill this gap.

While they, I think very importantly, noted that this wasn't their preferred choice, because they certainly recognized the troublesome elements of pornography, it was viewed as the only choice; pornography was the singular non-judgmental, non-regulated, and non-limited sexual resource available.

This finding suggests that youth pornography consumption is related, at least in part, to challenges in accessing comprehensive sexual resources in Canada.

When we consider these findings together, they highlight that for topics such as Motion M-47 it's important to foreground how pornography, including that with violent content, is consumed alongside and in relation to other sexual content, messages, and imagery, both online and off. Pornography is part of a much wider sexuality ecosystem and not something that can or should really be considered in isolation. The public health effects of pornography are linked to the tone and tenor of the way sexuality is addressed in education, health, media, and online spaces.

The overall implication of this work is that from a public health perspective pornography is not the singular central topic at issue that needs to be addressed; pornography is rather a part of a much larger discussion about improving sexual health, especially for youth, in Canada. It begs questions such as: how can sexuality education be made more consistent, coordinated, and comprehensive across the provinces; how can gender and sexuality equity be improved at the societal level; are there opportunities for new partnerships in this regard?

This is not in any way to lessen the very important conversation that's being had here, but rather to recognize the ways in which it is really reflective of a critical need for a much larger conversation about sexual health promotion in Canada.

I'm going to leave my thoughts here at this point. The implications will be expanded upon by Dr. Gahagan. Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to the panel discussion.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thank you for your contribution.

We now have been joined by Dr. Mary Anne Layden, director of the sexual trauma and psychopathology program in the department of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania.

Welcome.

11:10 a.m.

Mary Anne Layden Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

We're going to have one more witness for a 10-minute presentation, and then you'll have an opportunity to make a 10-minute presentation.

Thanks for joining us from Pennsylvania. We appreciate it very much.

Now we're going to go to Professor Jacqueline Gahagan, professor and interim director, and assistant dean at Dalhousie University.

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Jacqueline Gahagan Professor, Interim Director, Assistant Dean, Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Hello.

I'm pleased to be here today.

I'd like to start by acknowledging that the land that we gather on is a traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishnaabe.

While we know that pornography in the Internet age is clearly an important health and social issue, the role of public health in addressing this issue is much less clear. We know that public health is concerned with protecting the health of the aggregate. We know also that the raison d'être for public health is essentially to utilize the organized efforts within society to keep people healthy and to prevent illness, injury, and premature death. As part of its mandate, for example, the Public Health Agency of Canada is tasked with developing, implementing, and evaluating public health policies, programs, and services aimed at promoting and protecting the health of Canadians.

While health promotion and disease prevention are key elements of how public health undertakes its mandate, it's really under the subprogram areas of conditions for healthy living, healthy child development, and perhaps healthy communities in the PHAC report on plans and priorities 2016-17 that we can see an obvious connection with public health on the issue of the potential public health effects of violent and degrading sexually explicit material on children, women, and men.

When we think of the role of public health in promoting sexual health, on the one hand, and in preventing illness on the other, the issue of pornography is not as straightforward as public health responses to, for example, the prevention of communicable diseases or infectious diseases. Through epidemiology, rates of disease and related poor health outcomes can often be attributable to specific etiology such as lack of clean drinking water, poor housing, physical inactivity, and so on. The cause and effect of pornography as a public health issue is muddied by other structural inequities associated with issues of gender-based violence and misogyny that are, to an extent, regulated and enforced by our laws, legislation, social norms, values, and mores, which we know are subject to change over time.

We know that pornography, by definition, is concerned with the development of and circulation of books, magazines, videos, art, and music aimed at creating sexual excitement. However, the exact cause and effect of pornography in relation to sexual violence and poor health outcomes is still hotly debated. That said, it's still important to note that with the growing use of Internet-based pornography and the relative ease by which it can be accessed, the question about what role public health can play is indeed timely.

From a health promotion perspective, encouraging safe behaviours and improving health through healthy public policy, community-based interventions, active public participation, advocacy, and action on the key determinants of health can prove useful in addressing concerns associated with the ready access to Internet-based forms of pornography, as well as other forms of pornography. However, a review of existing sexual health education provided in Canadian schools suggests the need for additional supports to appropriately address sexuality, sexual health, and sexual expression. In fact, many Canadian youth do not receive the level of sexual health education they need to make informed decisions about risk-taking, including the risks associated with the use of web-based technologies such as cellphones for sexting or sharing homemade porn on the Internet with their friends.

More studies are not likely going to tell us what we already know. For example, we already know that sexually explicit materials are widely available online and elsewhere. A potential action in this regard, I would argue, would be the development of a national sexual health promotion strategy that would be included in school sex health education, through online partner agencies as well as through other media venues. This proposed national sexual health promotion strategy would offer information on things such as healthy relationships, sexually transmitted and blood-borne infection, STBBI, prevention and testing, as well as information on the potential impacts that violent pornography can have on youth and young adults, including the reality of possible criminal sanctions for those producing or circulating pornography without consent.

I applaud the efforts of our MPs in championing the issue of violent pornography as an important public health issue. However, we need to pay close attention to the seemingly universal truth that misogyny, sexual violence, and rape are gendered in nature. I would argue that this is the real challenge for us to focus our collective energies on in moving forward.

In addition, we need to address the failure of our school system in adequately equipping our youth and young adults with the tools they need to distinguish between what is morally, legally, or otherwise inappropriate in relation to sexual violence. The recent media coverage of parent organizations challenging school administrators about not wanting sexual health education that includes, for example, non-heteronormative perspectives, suggests that we still have a very long way to go.

The time for a national sexual health promotion strategy, one that offers information on potential repercussions of unwanted sexual advances, sexual assault, sexting, and posting of sexual images without consent is now. Ask yourselves if you believe that our youth have a clear understanding of these issues in the new frontier of cybersex, online porn, sexting, and sharing of homemade porn. In addition to ensuring that youth are aware of the difference between consensual sex and sexual assault, they also need to be aware of the role they can play as upstanders when they witness a sexual assault.

As we know from the recent cases in the media, including the Rehtaeh Parsons case from Nova Scotia, there is an urgent need to do more to prevent sexual assault, sexual exploitation, and other forms of sexual violence. Whether the impetus for such behaviours can be squarely pinned on the ready access of violent online pornography or not, the reality is that youth have access, but may not have the knowledge to determine what is real, what is criminal, or otherwise.

I'd like to bring us back to the issue of gender-based violence, which is a long-standing concern in Canada, as well as for many other countries. Despite this fact, gender-based analyses of how well existing sexual health interventions, including those made available in the school system, are or are not addressing gender-based violence in sexual education, is sadly and largely absent.

In this regard, it is noteworthy that the Government of Canada has signed on to a variety of constitutional obligations on gender-based analysis from 1981 onwards. Yet we do not see the widespread use of the Canadian GBA+ framework in advancing our understanding of the ways in which sexual health education is meeting the information needs of both male and female youth in our school system.

In closing, I would like to urge the Standing Committee on Health to look more closely at how well we are currently equipping youth and young adults in Canada with the sexual health promotion knowledge they need to make informed choices about the place of pornography in their lives. In this regard, I firmly believe that a national sexual health promotion strategy, one which includes evaluative components such as a gender-based analytic framework, will prove instrumental in addressing this complex issue.

Thank you for your attention.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

I thank you very much for your presentation. Thank you both for being within the time allotted.

Now we're going to hear from Dr. Mary Anne Layden, live from Pennsylvania.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual

Mary Anne Layden

Thank you so much for inviting me to speak. I appreciate your interest in this topic.

I'm going to present my case that society has become “pornofied”. By that I mean that sex has become a product, that the body is now seen as a commodity. If it's a product, you can sell it; if you can sell it, you can steal it. The sexual exploitation industry includes pornography, strip clubs, prostitution, and sex trafficking; and the sexual violence and sexual abuse phenomenon includes sexual harassment, rape, and incest. The sexual exploitation industry and the sexual abuse phenomena are a seamless, interconnected continuum that cannot be separated.

I want to talk for a minute about learning. Psychologists have studied the phenomenon of learning, and what they find is that pictures are compact carriers of meaning, that learning is deeper if you're rewarded for the behaviour, and the orgasm is very rewarding. Learning is deeper when you have role models that are showing us the behaviour and if those role models are rewarded. Learning is deeper in the presence of arousal, and antisocial behaviours are learned and expressed more when you think you're anonymous and no one can see you.

Therefore, pictures, rewards, role models, arousal, and anonymity all produce greater learning, which are all phenomena present in Internet pornography, making pornography, especially Internet pornography, a perfect learning environment, except for the fact that everything it teaches you is a lie.

Psychologists now call Internet pornography the new crack cocaine. What is it teaching us?

The first thing it's teaching us is permission-giving beliefs. Permission-giving beliefs are beliefs that tell us what I'm doing is normal, it doesn't hurt anybody, and that everybody is doing it. Therefore, I don't need to change my behaviour. Those who have a problem with my behaviour are wrong, crazy, and prudish.

For example, some permission-giving beliefs believe all men go to prostitutes, all people want sex with all people all the time. Women enjoy being raped. Women enjoy degrading sex. Children like to have sex with adults.

It also produces miseducation about sexuality. Pornography tells us that sex is not about intimacy, caring, love, or respect. It's not about marriage or having children. Sex is recreational. You don't need to know your partner. Sex with strangers is the most intense and the best kind of sex. Sex is adversarial. Pornography is a one-way street that focuses only on your own pleasure, and there's no need to consider the needs or feelings of others. Also, sex is a male entitlement. Men need sex, and women's bodies are just sexual entertainment for men.

Pornography includes performers who never say no, and never reject sexual advances. This increases unrealistic expectations about others, entitlement for sex, frustration with others who say no, and the reduced awareness and skill of noticing the unwillingness of partners.

From this point on, I'm going to talk about research findings. I can't talk about the more than 200 studies that have been done on this, or the tens of thousands of subjects, but let me give you some of the findings.

In the research we found that men who use pornography think that women enjoy rape, that she got what she wanted when she was raped. They're more accepting of the rape myth, which is a set of beliefs that are untrue about rape, and they also believe that rapists deserve less time in prison. They have an adversarial view of sex. They have more callous sexual beliefs. They're more accepting of violence against women. They use more sexual terms to describe women. They see women as sex objects. They have reduced support for the women's liberation movement. They rate their partners as less attractive, are less satisfied with their partner's sexual performance, have a greater desire to have sex without emotional involvement. They have a greater desire and acceptance of sex outside of marriage for married people, are less child-centred, and are less desiring of female children.

They are willing to have sex with individuals who are 13 to 14 years old, are sexually attracted to children, and less likely to think that pornography needs to be restricted from children.

The increasing use of pornography is related to higher psychopath scores. Those are the thinking effects. The behavioural effects are these: sexual dysfunction of men who use pornography; erectile dysfunction; premature ejaculation; retarded ejaculation, especially in younger men. In one study, 58% of the male participants, with an average age of 25, had erectile dysfunction with women, but not with pornography.

The recent brain image studies show us that pornography users have what's called “teen brain”, impulse centres more active than the rational centres; “cocaine brain”, that is, pornography produced as a similar brain pathway as cocaine. They have less grey matter, less brain sensitivity to sexual stimuli, and less brain connectivity.

They have more sex partners, are less attracted to their sex partners, are less interested in actual sex with their partners, and ask their partners to act out scenes in pornographic films. They have more affairs if they're married, and are more likely to prostitute women.

In fact, in one study, 25% of the 19- to 21-year-old males said that they had either already prostituted a woman or planned to in the future. The more pornography these males used, the more likely they were to prostitute a woman or to say they would in the future, and those who prostituted women were more likely to engage in non-consenting sex. Men who go to strip clubs are most likely to engage in non-consenting sex.

Man who use pornography engage in more behavioural aggression, are more likely to sexually abuse partners whom they have battered, use violent sexual fantasies to get themselves aroused, and are more likely to actually harass women. They are more likely to engage in date rape, stranger rape, and marital rape. They are more likely to verbally coerce sex, physically coerce sex, and use drugs and alcohol to coerce sex.

The earlier male children are exposed to pornography, the more likely they are to engage in non-consenting sex. There's a greater use of pornography among juvenile sex offenders, adult sex offenders, child molesters, and incest offenders. Men who are convicted of using child pornography later admit that they had sexually abused children as well.

The diagnosis of pedophilia is found more in child pornography users than even in child rapists.

The three factors that have been identified as connected with sexual violence are hostility toward women; a belief that sex is casual, non-intimate, recreational, and adversarial; and the use of pornography.

U.S. statistics are horrific. One in eight women is raped. Twenty-five per cent of college females experience a rape or an attempted rape. Fifty per cent of women are sexually harassed in their lifetime, and 38% of females have been sexually molested by 18.

The effects on women are these.

Women exposed to pornography are more likely to accept the rape myth, have more sexual fantasies that involve rape, and think that rapists deserve less time in jail.

They also have reduced support for the women's liberation movement. They're more negative about their bodies, think their male partners are more critical of their bodies, and have less sex. The more pornography a young adult female uses, the more likely she is to be a victim of non-consenting sex.

Let's look at the research on kids.

Kids who are exposed to sexualized media are more likely to have engaged in oral sex, anal sex, and sexual intercourse. They are more likely to have more negative attitudes towards condoms, have not used contraception in the last intercourse, have not used contraception in the last six months, have an earlier initiation to sex, have more sex partners, have had more than one sex partner in the last three months, and have sex more frequently. They are more likely to have a strong desire to conceive, and in fact are more likely to get pregnant.

They are more likely to engage in more sexual harassment, and in more non-consensual sex. They are more likely to test positive for chlamydia, have used alcohol and other substances in their last sexual intercourse, have higher sexual permissiveness scores, and have less progressive gender role attitudes.

The philosopher Roger Scruton has said that from his point of view, the damage that pornography causes is that it threatens the loss of love in a world where only love brings happiness.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thank you very much for your powerful presentation.

We'll now go to questions from the members, and we'll start with Mr. Kang.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank all the witnesses for sharing their research on this very important topic.

My question is around the Criminal Code. Though access to sexually explicit material is legal in Canada, it's content is regulated by the Criminal Code, under section 163. It is an offence to make, print, publish, distribute, or circulate any obscene written matter, picture, model, phonograph record, or other thing whatever. It is also an offence to posses such material for the purpose of publication, distribution, or circulation. An obscene publication is one that has the undue exploitation of sex, or of sex and any one or more of the following subjects, namely crime, horror, cruelty, and violence, as dominant characteristics.

Do you think that greater efforts need to be made to enforce the Criminal Code in relation to the production and distribution of obscene materials online? If so, what measures do you think should be taken?

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Interim Director, Assistant Dean, Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Prof. Jacqueline Gahagan

I am not a lawyer. My suggestion is that you might want to speak to somebody from the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University specifically about that.

The point I was trying to make in my presentation was essentially that youth are unaware of criminal activity, so even if they are old enough to be charged with an adult criminal offence under the Criminal Code, I am not convinced that they actually understand that. From my perspective, making the information more accessible to youth.... For example, in the case of Rehtaeh Parsons in Nova Scotia, which I'm sure everyone in this room is well aware of, I am not convinced that the youth who were involved actually understood what they were doing and what the circulation of that material meant in that context.

Again, to go back to my original point, I think we can do better to make information more accessible to youth so they understand the potential for criminal sanctions for those types of behaviours.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Dr. Layden, do you have a comment on that?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual

Mary Anne Layden

I am not familiar with Canadian law, but I will say that research on the content of pornography indicates that close to 90% of the images that are currently available include physical and behavioural aggression, and the vast majority of it is male directed at female. So the overwhelming amount of pornography that involves physical and sexual violence is what in fact our youth are looking at. I am concerned about that end, that we have a massive amount of pornography.

In our research, in the States, we are hard pressed to find any young adult males who have not been exposed to pornography. It's almost at the universal level, and the age of being exposed is getting younger and younger—one recent study said 11—so we have a combination of very young people universally exposed to universally aggressive and violent content.

When you are looking at this imagery, when you have brain arousal effects, let's say, the amygdala is aroused and the prefrontal cortex shuts down, so your executive functions, your rational functions, are actually shut down at the point of arousal. These individuals are not making adult, mature responses to this. You can't block those brain responses by decoding pornography or by doing media analysis of it. The impact on the brain and on the responses has already happened.

This impact is very quick. In one study, people who were shown an image of violence mixed with sexuality, after one presentation started to use violent images to make themselves sexually aroused, so the sexual template spreads very quickly and without a lot of rational intervention. If we are showing them pictures of criminal activity and then expecting them not to do it, that's really rather naive, from my point of view. I think that they are going to do it.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

In your opinion, should the law be enforced for the distribution and production of those materials?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual

Mary Anne Layden

We have an American law in which both the production and the distribution of obscenity are a federal offence. We are encouraging the American authorities to enforce that law.

We have a new Attorney General of the United States, who says that he will vigorously enforce the obscenity law, which prosecutes production and distribution of obscene material. Now, material that includes child sexual abuse is federally illegal to produce, to distribute, and to view, so the law is broader on those materials.

I do think the law should be enforced and we should hold accountable businesses and Internet service providers that distribute this. In the United States, there has been an attempt to get hotels to stop distributing obscenity, and we have been quite successful in getting the vast majority of hotels to take obscene material out of their video offerings. We are encouraging the use of the law and also encouraging businesses to hold higher ethical standards in terms of what they are doing.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

I have to inform the members that there is a vote call. We have 27 minutes and 26 seconds. I need unanimous consent to carry on for another 10 or 15 minutes. Do I have unanimous consent to carry on?

11:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Okay, we have unanimous consent.

You still have 42 seconds.

I'm sorry about that, Dr. Layden.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

According to the report entitled “Basically...porn is everywhere”, a rapid evidence assessment of the effects that access and exposure to pornography have on children and young people, there is mixed evidence related to the extent to which children and young people are exposed to sexually violent materials. Can you describe current research evidence to describe the extent to which men, women, and children are either accessing or being exposed to online violent and degrading sexually explicit material in Canada or elsewhere?

Dr. Hare.

11:30 a.m.

Doctoral Student, Department of Language and Literacy Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Kathleen Hare

I would say it's pretty consistent to some of the other.... As has been said, for youth, and especially for college-aged men, we put exposure to these materials at around 70% to 90%. For college-aged women, we generally estimate a bit lower, at about 20% to 40%.

In terms of the proportion of access on the Internet to one of the largest sites, for example, Pornhub, Canada is ranked third in the world.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Dr. Carrie.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to be splitting my time with Ms. Harder.

Unfortunately, we don't have enough time to ask all the questions, but maybe we can find out from you by written means.

I have to tell you that for me this study was really important, because I think it's about our kids. I think, Dr. Gahagan, you nailed it. I think kids are unaware that sometimes they're committing a crime. We did change the law, so unwanted distribution of images is illegal, but it doesn't mean the kids won't do it.

I was extremely surprised, too, Madam Hare, when you said that today in Canada there's a context devoid of alternatives. It almost seems like 40 years ago when I was growing up we didn't want to talk about sex or anything like that. For me, this is about controls and access as far as our kids are concerned.

I was wondering if you could answer these questions. We see that this can be a problem. Should we as a government intervene, and what should we do? Can we intervene and do we need to?

11:35 a.m.

Professor, Interim Director, Assistant Dean, Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Prof. Jacqueline Gahagan

Yes and yes. So, yes we should and yes we can.

The suggestion I brought forward is a more comprehensive national sexual health promotion strategy. Recognizing that education and health are provincial responsibilities, I still think there's a place for leadership at the federal level. In other words, if there is a set of standards, for example, at the federal level that says that all schools have to receive this type of information about pornography or sexual violence, I think that sets the goalpost, if you will, for how provinces do what they do. In fact, in a blog I just put out on Monday about this topic, there's a clickable link that allows you to look at the distribution of sexual health education across the country. You'll see it's quite variable—by age, by region, etc.

I think the leadership has to come from the national level, again, by looking at the federal government to say this is a crisis.

Using the example of the increase of sexually transmitted infections since the 1990s onward, there's a huge upward trend and no indication of slowing that down. That means we are actually educating kids in the school system without providing tools for them to make decisions about things such as sexual violence or the prevention of STBBIs.

We know from a public health perspective—and this is perhaps the hook to public health—that the cost to the taxpayer doesn't go away. In fact, it increases across the life course of those individuals. So I think starting at the school level and saying that this is something that needs to be done, but with federal leadership, is the way to go.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I know the U.K. recently put together something. Again, what can the federal government do? I was wondering if you could comment on their action.

11:35 a.m.

Professor, Interim Director, Assistant Dean, Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Prof. Jacqueline Gahagan

There's a recent scoping review by a colleague of mine from the University College London. Her name is Julia Bailey. She's put out a very comprehensive scoping review on the issue of Internet sexual health information. In that you'll find evidence-based.... They have looked at sexual health interventions across the U.K., and specifically have looked at which are considered effective in terms of the affective domain, in terms of knowledge, and translating that knowledge into behaviour. I think that's a good place to start.

Wales also has a really nice national sexual health promotion set of guidelines. I think those are, again, set at the national level and are meant to trickle down to how that happens within each of the provisioning areas that are responsible for sexual health education, including schools.

I think we need to look at Australia, the U.K., and other contexts where, I would argue—and I mean this with all due respect—they are much more progressive in tackling this at a much younger age than we are.

We let it go and hope for the best. We're finding, using the example of increased rates of STIs, that this information is not getting to kids. If it were, and it were getting to them in an effective way, we wouldn't see the levels of STIs we see in this country. We also wouldn't see the levels of sexual violence in this country.