Health Committee on Sept. 12th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Yes.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Sorry to interrupt. Impaired driving is a very important topic. It's a concern for all Canadians that we have proper control of it, but we're dealing with Bill C-45. At some point in time, in the future, we're going to have to do a clause-by-clause review of Bill C-45, which does not deal at all with impaired driving. Bill C-46 deals with all of those kinds of questions, concerns, and the training. The justice committee is dealing with that. I'm concerned that we're taking very important time away from being able to question these witnesses about Bill C-45 by directing it to Bill C-46, which is another committee's job and another bill.

I don't know whether it's a point of order, Dr. Carrie, but at the end of the day we have to do a clause-by-clause review of Bill C-45, and it's silent on this topic.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I really appreciate your bringing up that comment because, as a health committee, one of the things we have to address is the health and safety of Canadians. For public safety concerns, I believe it's really important that we get the opinions of the people on the ground, when they're the ones responsible for the health and safety of Canadians on the road. We have good evidence to suggest that there's one substance out there. We're talking about another substance to get their opinion on that, and I think it does fall within the scope of this study.

Thanks. I appreciate your letting me comment on that.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Briefly, to the point of order, I've struggled with the same concept that there's a separate piece of legislation dealing with the impaired driver regime, but in fairness to Dr. Carrie and all members of the committee, I believe it's companion legislation that's necessitated by this legislation. We probably wouldn't be talking about the need to amend the Criminal Code to deal with impaired driving if we were not legalizing marijuana. I wouldn't want any member of this committee to be restricted from talking about that, if they wish. I will be limiting myself to Bill C-45 as much as possible, but I do want to speak in favour of Dr. Carrie's ability to venture into that if he wants, particularly from a health point of view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

This is a health committee, but we are going back and forth between justice and health issues all the way through this panel. Let's try to focus on the health issues, and we'll just continue on. Everyone has a point here, but we are dealing with justice issues. Just look at the uniforms here. Even though it's a health committee, they are interrelated.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

There is a definite science, Mr. Chair, when we're talking about an ordinary officer who's trained in sobriety. I think all officers do get training in that, but we have drug recognition experts who we've heard are going to be absolutely necessary. If the government is going to roll this out, these experts have to be on the ground. They have to be prepared. The courts are accepting only drug recognition experts as experts in court, and now with it about to be a legal substance, there is a science behind this. There are absolutely health issues behind this, and I want to hear from our guys on the ground. They have very few of these experts available to them today.

The Prime Minister has been very adamant that this is a promise he's going to keep, and in 290 days. I want to make sure the health and safety of Canadians is addressed. These people are going to be absolutely necessary. The cost of this is also an important thing for this committee to address, because my understanding is that it could be up to $20,000 per officer to get this training. I want to hear from the guys on the ground.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you for your testimony. Go ahead.

[D/Chief Mark Chatterbok]

The International Association of Chiefs of Police website lists the process for certification for DRE training. Everyone who's involved in the program has to first take the standardized field sobriety training before they attend the DRE program. Then the program itself consists of three phases. The first phase is a two-day preschool. The second phase is a seven-day classroom program with a comprehensive exam following that. Then between 60 and 90 days following phase two, the candidates attend a program in the U.S. where they have to evaluate subjects who are suspected of being impaired by drugs. My understanding is that they must participate in at least 12 evaluations successfully in order to then get the certification.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

What percentage passes, and how long does that whole process take for one officer to be trained?

[D/Chief Mark Chatterbok]

I don't have an answer to that question.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

My understanding is that not every officer does pass this. This is a very specific training program, and my concern is that, if the government does roll this out, those officers will not be on the ground and won't have the resources to properly look after the health and safety of Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

You still have time.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Okay.

Maybe for Saskatchewan, do you have an opinion on the best way to distribute marijuana once it is legalized? What model would be easier for police to monitor?

[D/Chief Mark Chatterbok]

Specifically, you are asking in reference to which models?

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Ontario has come up with a model. I think it's focusing on the LCBO type of model. We've seen, I think, a very good model where, for medical marijuana anyway, there's a secure mail. I don't know, and maybe your colleagues could comment on this, but my understanding is that there hasn't been a lot of diversion from secure mail. There are a lot of different models out there, and again, because of the hodgepodge that provinces are going to be faced with, one province can do it differently from another.

We've seen Ontario come out. Of course, it doesn't want to come here and be questioned on it. For police, what's the best system of distribution that will allow you to monitor and keep the safety of Canadians in mind?

[D/Chief Mark Chatterbok]

I think the best system would be one that allows us to differentiate between illicit and licit marijuana. I can't tell you exactly what that system would look like because I don't know enough about that, but certainly a system that would allow us to enforce the legislation and the regulations as well as we can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Now your time is up.

We go now to Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thanks.

Mr. Chatterbok, you mentioned, I think, if I had your testimony correct, that you felt that once Bill C-45 comes into place, investigations will increase. Can you elaborate on that? How do you think investigations are going to increase under this bill?

[D/Chief Mark Chatterbok]

I suspect that once the legislation is in place, especially the way the legislation is worded now, we're going to see an increase in complaints with respect to home-grows, specifically. As I also mentioned in opening remarks, we anticipate that we will also see increased calls for service, whether it's with respect to street robberies, break and enters, or so on, but certainly around the grow operations themselves.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Chief Barnum, I think you mentioned the geographical challenges. The OPP of course has the entire province of Ontario. Can you tell us a bit about the rural challenges you see that this legislation may be presenting from an enforcement point of view, provincially?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

From an Ontario perspective, we have 164 detachments spread across the province. Some of those detachments we access by airplane only. Members there will have to be trained as well, because it's important to recognize that our officers on Monday morning may report to their detachment, no matter where it is, and Monday afternoon may be working at an event somewhere in the province of Ontario. It's not as if we can categorize with certainly who gets training here and there; it has to be uniform throughout the province. That's a challenge for us as an organization all the time, and one that we routinely deal with, but we deal with it through specifically organized training sessions and an academy that looks after that. That would be one of our challenges.

As far as the enforcement perspective goes, again, it's important to recognize that we're in 373 communities in the province of Ontario. Some of those communities have street lights and some of them don't. Again, we're in 54 court jurisdictions. That's every court jurisdiction that exists in the province of Ontario. The OPP has a responsibility to provide evidence and to be in those court jurisdictions. Uniformity is absolutely key for our organization, as my colleague mentioned earlier. We don't want to be on the front page for making bad decisions and doing bad police work. Training is a cornerstone to making sure we do it properly. We're well positioned to deliver the training, once we know what it is, and we're well positioned to meet deadlines. We can do that and we can move resources to make sure that happens. Those would be our key concerns around that issue.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Chief Serr, I'll end with you, if I can.

In a March 2017 interview on Canada's legalization, Mario Harel, the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, said:

We need about 2,000 drug-recognizance experts to do the job properly.... We have about 600 right now.

We need more training and it’s going to be a long process. We have to realize that we won’t have enough police officers trained by next year.

I have two quick questions. Do you concur with that? Second, it was, I think, Chief Chatterbok who talked about maybe setting up a Canadian training capacity instead of having to send Canadian officers to the States. Can you elaborate a bit on who will do that, where the money would come from, and whether that's possible?

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

As a quick answer to your questions, I do concur with Chief Harel. As for 2,000, that's a very good estimate on his part. We don't know what that exact number will be. One of our challenges is that police officers are trained and then they're also moved to different assignments, which poses an ongoing continuous challenge in training. We need a significant increase in drug recognition experts, for sure.

Part two of your question, I'm sorry....

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It was on Canadian training.

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

Our concern right now is that the capacity for that availability, that training, is through the U.S. It is expensive, and currently the U.S. police agencies have a vested interest in training their members in that, which takes priority in many cases. We need a made-for-Canadian policing solution to this. We need to bring that training here, if possible, if we're going to train that many officers as quickly as possible.