Health Committee on Sept. 12th, 2017

[D/Chief Thomas Carrique, Deputy Chief, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police]

To add to my colleague's comments, I think it is very important to distinguish between legalization and decriminalization and the importance that will be found in the regulations. We do look forward to working with the government to ensure that there are robust regulations. Those regulations are going to be relied upon heavily to be able to identify and disrupt organized crime and also to protect the most valuable asset in our country and in our communities, which is our youth.

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

It's an interesting question. I worked in drug enforcement for 12 years and have been in thousands of marijuana grows, and in all kinds of undercover, street-level situations. I've seen youth break into houses and cars and turn that money right into money to purchase, or turn those properties right into money to purchase, marijuana. I've stood right beside it when that's happened. I think there's a huge opportunity here to fix a lot of these issues.

I have great concerns about the home-grow challenges. From everything that I've seen over my time in policing, along with my colleagues who have a very similar background to mine, I have great concern about making it right for our youth. I read all the studies on Ontario and you can see the number of youth who are using marijuana. It's very clear, so we need to do something. This is another great opportunity to get it right.

I have concerns about home-grows. I have concerns that organized crime is deeply involved in the medical marijuana system. I have a package that will show you this, in much more detail than when I spoke in my few minutes. We have a chance to get organized crime out of this, we really do, so we have to get the administration process low. We have to be streamlined and we have to make sure the inspection processes are detailed and thorough so we can eradicate organized crime from this problem.

I also hugely agree that if legislation is ready to go in July 2018, policing will not be ready to go August 1; it's impossible. The damage that can be done between the time of new legislation and police officers being ready to enforce the law in six months or a year can make it very hard for us to ever regain that foothold.

Those would be my concerns and cautions from my lived experience as a police officer on the streets working specifically in drug enforcement. I think we're very close. I agree that something had to change. This is a great step, but we have to do it right and do it slowly and properly.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

In 290 days, would the CACP also agree that it is not going to be ready to go and to be able to implement anything?

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

Yes, we've stated that we need to know everything about this legislation from provincial, federal, municipal levels before we can really start to prepare, so we are asking that the government consider giving us more time to have all the legislation fully in place, which will allow us to properly train and prepare for the implementation on day one.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I definitely agree it needs to be done right rather than rushing it.

I was interested in your comments about possession limits. I agree that in order to send the right message to young people ages 12 to 17, zero is the right amount that they should have. I like the idea of making it ticketed so they don't have any criminal offence that would haunt them for the rest of their lives. What do you think about the possession limits that are set for an adult at 30 grams? Do you have any guidance in that light?

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

I can take that one.

That was a topic of much dialogue on our committee. There are two sides to that coin. In one sense, if you make it too difficult for people to purchase cannabis—if it's challenging for them and they don't have reasonable access to a certain amount—that will certainly make the market vulnerable to organized crime, which could fill that void.

Obviously we don't want to see it made too high, because that opens up the possibility of diversion of the product. In regard to the 30 grams, we are mindful that it is approximately 60 marijuana joints, but we're also mindful that if it is not enough, people may not choose to go into a store—or wherever it is—to buy it, and may look to other avenues. At this point, after much discussion and debate, we would certainly not want to see it any higher; 30 grams would be the maximum limit that we would want to see it set at.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good, thank you.

My other question has to do with organized crime. We heard testimony that organized crime is involved, even in medical marijuana. Regardless of what legislation we put in place, I guess I personally don't believe that organized crime is going to say, “Well, you're right, we've had a good run at it but, you know, laws are in place now, so let's just license and do things by the book and go along with that.” Do you really believe that this legislation will fix the problem of organized crime being involved?

[D/Chief Thomas Carrique]

This legislation will not eliminate organized crime, but there is an opportunity to mitigate the impact organized crime has on our communities. That opportunity will be found in improved regulations, and security clearances that are not limited to just the principals of the companies or licence-holders, but the investors, the contractors, and the suppliers, extending beyond just a basic security clearance check and getting into forensic financial audits.

If you follow the money, you will find the organized crime. It is currently a $7-billion illicit industry in this country. There are over 300 criminal organizations currently involved in the production, distribution, importation, or exportation of cannabis. We can mitigate it, but we cannot eliminate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Your time is up.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you for being here today.

I'm getting a very clear message from all of you. It was said most clearly by Officer Barnum, I think. “We will not be ready August 1. That's impossible.” I think those were your words.

Let's say the government presses ahead with this artificial deadline of July 2018 and you're not ready. The next day, tell me what that looks like for your police forces. What are the consequences of you not being ready?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

What it looks like is still up in the air for us. It depends when we start getting information about what the legislation is going to look like. If we have a good heads-up, let's say, six or seven months out, we can start to work; we'll prioritize. We'll analyze all of our statistics, where things are happening, which highways are of concern from the impaired perspective, where we believe certain groups may challenge us with a lot of home-grows or organized crime, and that type of thing. We'll try to do the best we can to get that foothold and maintain that foothold without letting things get out of control.

It's so dependent on what the legislation looks like, for starters, when we get it, and when we will have time to get our training and act together to respond to the legislation. It's a tough one to answer hard and fast for you, but the reality is the sooner we get it, the better off we'll be, and much will depend on what it looks like.

[D/Chief Thomas Carrique]

If I may add to the Deputy Commissioner's comments, one of the impacts we want to keep in mind in terms of rushing legislation and police not being prepared through adequate training is this: if we don't have the proper knowledge and the proper training, that can lead to poor decisions, which can result in bad case law for new legislation. Our opportunity to get it right will solidify the sustainability of the laws before the courts. That's why training is so important to us.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

You're all provincial and municipal police forces. We all know this system is going to require provincial regulation decisions and perhaps even municipal ones when it comes landlord and tenant matters. How much of what you need to know is going to be dependent on the provincial and municipal regulatory system that has yet to be determined?

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

A significant amount has been left to the provinces: the mode of sale, the age, and the home-grows will be part of their mandate. So there's a lot that we are still waiting for from the provincial government that we will require even prior to being able to draft our training. Also, we need to ensure that we have the infrastructure in place. We talked about our concerns regarding the seizure of plants and our ability to manage that. What different facilities we will need is still a question that we need to answer in order to manage our seizures of cannabis and elsewhere. For us, there is a lot left to be answered before we can even begin the process.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

One of the purposes of the act is “to protect public health and public safety and, in particular, to”, according to paragraph 7(e), “reduce the burden on the criminal justice system in relation to cannabis”. On July 1 or whenever this happens, is this scheme of legislation going to reduce the burden on the criminal justice system, from your point of view?

[D/Chief Mike Serr]

We don't believe so. We look again to lessons learned from Colorado and Washington state, and in fact, they did find that there was an increased capacity at the onset. As we stated, it's critically important that at the onset we be very vigorous in our enforcement to ensure compliance with the new regulations. This is a brand new system, and we need to make sure that we do it right and we are fairly strict with the enforcement.

We know that in 2016, I believe, there were approximately 16,000 or 17,000 charges for simple possession of marijuana, but we think those will be replaced with ticketing. They'll be replaced with nuisance calls. They will be replaced if, unfortunately, we do go forward with personal grows, with us having to manage those grow operations, which, of course, will be a very time-consuming and onerous process for our officers, who will then have to seize the plants and take them back to a police department or a facility to store them and go through that process. We don't see this, at least at the onset and for several years, as being any sort of time-saving for our staff.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Let me put this to you, because it's starting to appear to me that this isn't legalization of cannabis. This is making it less illegal. Whereas today you can't possess anything in the public street, you would be able to possess 30 grams. You still have to enforce against someone who might have 35 or 40 grams.

Presently, you can't cultivate this at home. Well, this legislation will let you cultivate some at home, so you still have to enforce and police, but you'll be busting places that have 10 plants. Then there are the ticketable offences as you pointed out, Chief.

It seems to me I don't see any reduction in your job. If anything, by changing to a new regime, it strikes me that you're going to have to train a lot of your officers. Add the impaired-driving provisions of marijuana on top of that and I don't really see any difference in the burden you have. In fact, if anything, it will be greater.

I want to move to Officer Barnum.

What is the average size of grow ops that you encounter? How many plants on average would you encounter?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

I'm not sure I have the average size. I've been in indoor grow operations with 45,000 to 50,000 plants. I have been in indoor grow operations that have eight or nine plants that have a huge yield and a ton of potential to grow a lot of marijuana. I'm not sure I could give you an average size, sir. It depends on organized crime, on the group, its abilities, whether it has a good electrician, if it knows what it is doing, and the facility.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to be devil's advocate with you on this a little bit. I would say the average grow op has probably more than four plants. Let me put a couple of things to you. Doesn't it help undercut the black market if you allow people to grow four plants? Then they don't have to get their marijuana from sources that otherwise we wouldn't want them to get it from. Isn't that one way to undercut organized crime?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

I'd prefer to use the legal system that's going to be put in place.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

With regard to concerns like mould, electricity diversion, and those kinds of things, are those really happening when you have large grow ops? The average household probably has more than four plants in it right now, so by limiting it to four plants, isn't that sort of a reasonable way to avoid those concerns of having large-scale places in your basement, which do lead to mould and electricity diversion? I guess what I'm saying is I think four plants probably wouldn't lead to these fears of electrical diversion and mould. Am I missing something here?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

I don't know. It depends on who's doing the grows. If somebody tries to run 2,000-watt bulbs over their four plants, they have to increase the size of electricity; if they want a 14-week turnaround instead of a 40-week soil turnaround to increase their profit; if they are diverting; or if they want a higher quality THC in their plant, these are all things they'll do. The average electrical service in a home won't satisfy that need, so that's going to be a problem.

Let's say you get people clumping together as a group and deciding that, okay, I have a contact, and I can get rid of the weed, but everybody needs to grow four plants, and here's how we're going to do it. We're going to do it based on chemical-based hydroponic grows. Then you're going to have problems with ventilation and that's going to cause mould. Again, you'll have a 14-week turnaround. You'll just be spinning plants through there all the time.

There are all kinds of things that can be imagined here. I think what's important is that we not sit back and think that there are going to be four little plants on the windowsill growing in a little bowl of soil and someday, sometime they're going to produce a little bit of bud and maybe somebody's going to roll a joint. I don't think that's reasonable in today's world. That's not at all what we see and experience.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thanks very much.

We'll now go to Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to start with Deputy Commissioner Barnum. You indicated that security checks for licensed producers need to be strengthened. Health Canada currently contracts the RCMP to do their security checks. Do you think there's something wrong with their process, that they don't go far enough, or that they need to add functionality to their process?

[D/Commr Rick Barnum]

Starting with the large grows that will be regulated and licensed, it's important to recognize, in my opinion—and I might be on my own on this one—that is what organized crime will target. That's where the most amount of money they could make would be, and that's our biggest opportunity to get them out. I believe we need more stringent processes than currently exist in the medical marijuana background check area.

I look at what we do in Ontario with the Alcohol and Gaming Commission. When somebody applies for a liquor licence at a bar, or wants a lottery licence for some sort of event, or to run a part-time casino or whatever, there are stringent background checks and, as my colleague mentioned, there are financial checks that take place. It's not just one layer. It's not simply that your name is going to be on the licence and that's it. No, no, no. We need to know who your staff are, where you're getting your money to run this bar, in this case, or where you're getting your money and your funding to run a legal licensed marijuana production facility. Where is that coming from? We need to do those checks that way. I would say it goes further than a criminal record check, and I agree with what my colleague Tom mentioned earlier, we need lots of layers here.

I would say that what we see happening in the medical system is not good enough for what we're going to do in the legal system.