Evidence of meeting #66 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was youth.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Page  Chief Executive Officer, Anandia Labs
John Conroy  Barrister, As an Individual
John Dickie  President, Canadian Federation of Apartment Associations
Scott Bernstein  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition
Ian Culbert  Executive Director, Canadian Public Health Association
Christina Grant  Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society
Judith Renaud  Executive Director, Educators for Sensible Drug Policy
Paul Renaud  Communications Director, Educators for Sensible Drug Policy
Peter A. Howlett  President, Portage
Peter Vamos  Executive Director, Portage
Amy Porath  Director, Research and Policy, Canadian Centre on Substance Use and Addiction
Marc Paris  Executive Director, Drug Free Kids Canada
William J. Barakett  Member, DFK Canada Advisory Council, Drug Free Kids Canada
François Gagnon  Scientific Advisor, Institut national de santé publique du Québec
Maude Chapados  Scientific Advisor, Institut national de santé publique du Québec
Gabor Maté  Retired Physician, As an Individual
Benedikt Fischer  Senior Scientist, Institute for Mental Health Policy Research, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Bernard Le Foll  Medical Head, Addiction Medicine Service, Acute Care Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Eileen de Villa  Medical Officer of Health, Toronto Public Health, City of Toronto
Sharon Levy  Director, Adolescent Substance Abuse Program, Boston Children's Hospital, As an Individual
Michelle Suarly  Chair, Cannabis Task Group, Ontario Public Health Association
Elena Hasheminejad  Member, Cannabis Task Group, Ontario Public Health Association

12:10 p.m.

Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Christina Grant

As a Canadian Paediatric Society, we don't recommend, obviously, any children or youth experimenting, because of all the risks I've outlined.

In terms of the age of legalization, again, we know that adolescents are already experimenting. The age, whether it's 21 or 25, is not going to be a deterrent from that standpoint.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I'm talking about 12-year-olds.

12:10 p.m.

Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Christina Grant

What I'm suggesting is that obviously that would be a very grave concern. As a physician, getting back to what Ian spoke about, we'd be assessing that young person and trying to understand why. That would be a mark showing that there's something going wrong, most likely, in that young person's life.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

What should be in this bill to allow you to do that? That's what I'm saying. What's the mechanism now? If somebody is allowed to have up to five grams, which in my understanding could be up to 15 joints, a 12-year-old, the potential for sharing it, selling it, of the criminal element utilizing younger people to get younger people hooked on it, is there. What tools should be in this bill to allow physicians, educators, and people who offer treatment to put them into that mode to catch it early?

In terms of prevention and treatment, what do we need in this bill that's not in there?

12:10 p.m.

Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Christina Grant

It goes back to some of the comments of our first speaker this morning around mandating that young people get assistance, whether from a physician or from some kind of connection with counselling and involvement with the family to understand what's going on.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Does that need to be in the bill?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

The time's up. We move to Mr. Ayoub.

We may need translation here.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Yes, I'm going to ask the questions in French, so if you need any translation please make use of it. I will wait until everyone is ready, just not to waste my time.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

No, you're good.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you to everyone for your testimonies, each more interesting than the last.

We sometimes experience historical moments, and I think this is one such moment. Last year, we passed legislation on medical assistance in dying. Today, we are spending a lot of time talking about legalizing cannabis. I'm listening to Mr. Renaud, Ms. Renaud, Ms. Grant and Mr. Culbert, and I'm hearing a sense of urgency. Am I wrong? Is there a sense of urgency in acting to save young people?

12:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Educators for Sensible Drug Policy

Judith Renaud

Yes, there is absolute urgency. We have a fentanyl crisis in British Columbia and now across Canada. We know that. We have a lot of turned-off people who have not really respected what they've been hearing from authorities. That's the case right from law enforcement to educators, to nurses, and to doctors.

At the last meeting I attended at an elementary school, the topic was cannabis and the brain. They called me up and asked me to sit in and listen. There were two doctors, three RCMP, and four community service people. All of them said there is an urgency for children to hear from all of them, but what they needed was to have everyone on the same page in order for the children to not be frustrated.

What I came out of the meeting with is that the police want to work with the doctors, the doctors want to work with the community services, and all of them want to work with parents. Everyone has felt isolated. If we stop the isolation and have the communication develop, that curriculum will be able to develop so that children will not be in harm's way.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Madam Renaud.

Mr. Culbert.

12:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Public Health Association

Ian Culbert

Absolutely, the time for action is now. As mentioned before, parents, educators, and health professionals need to know what the landscape is going to be going forward. We don't know that.

Ontario is the first jurisdiction to announce a plan for how it's going to roll out, and—

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I got the answer.

Madam Grant, is it the same answer?

12:15 p.m.

Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Christina Grant

Yes, I agree.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Since you said yes to that question, what would be your thoughts on this? Yesterday, we had the Ontario police here, and they said they would not be ready. What would your answer be to them in the case that it's an emergency and it needs to be addressed?

On the one side, I have some people saying to wait, to not do anything, to wait until we're ready. On the other side, there's an emergency. My perspective is to save the children.

12:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Public Health Association

Ian Culbert

Absolutely. As I said in my remarks, we have high levels of use right now. We need to be doing something right now, and until we decriminalize the product—legalize and regulate it—educators can't have the conversation. Everyone is muzzled because it's still illegal. We need to move as quickly as possible.

Law enforcement absolutely has challenges, but to say that there aren't drug-impaired drivers today.... They are taking action today. Is there going to be an explosion of drug-impaired drivers on July 1, 2018? I don't believe so, but I don't want to take away from the real challenges law enforcement is experiencing as well.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I have a comment, as well.

Until now, I have never sent my children or even young adults to buy things from criminals. As Ms. Grant said earlier, currently, 30% of young people have direct or indirect ties to criminals, the Mafia. The opposition is absolutely right: we want to eradicate the illegal side and drive criminals out of the market. We want to save young people. I'm concerned that 30% of young people have a connection with criminals. We have to eradicate that. We mustn't wait because it is always on the rise.

What is your reaction to this system, Ms. Renaud?

September 13th, 2017 / 12:20 p.m.

Communications Director, Educators for Sensible Drug Policy

Paul Renaud

As we've all perhaps heard said before, drug dealers don't ask for ID. Under the present system, which is no regulation and no control, all the decisions are being made by the criminal organizations. They decide the purity, they decide the price, and they'll sell to absolutely anybody.

We don't seem to have these problems with young people consuming alcohol so much, precisely because it is legal and because it is regulated. Our belief is that moving into a system of regulated cannabis will achieve the same results. It may take time, because the fact is that many young people are using cannabis, and perhaps inappropriately. Cannabis as medicine may turn out to be a very powerful tool to discourage use where it's not appropriate.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

The time is up.

Mr. Webber.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the panel.

Mr. Bernstein, I have a question for you. You support the federal minimum age of 18 years of age in this legislation. You suggest that any higher age will support the illicit market. You mention that strict enforcement policies do not work, that youth criminal penalties should be education and the soft approach, that there should be no criminal sanctions on youth whatsoever, under the age of 18.

I also heard from you, Dr. Grant, that you also do not agree with penalization of youth or the ticketing of infractions for possession.

Does not this then create a perfect environment for the black market, for the drug dealers to approach these children, who have no threat of legal consequences, and have them distribute their drugs for them? I just ask that question.

12:20 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition

Scott Bernstein

I'll start by questioning your premise that fear of legal sanction reduces youth behaviour around seeking out and using cannabis. During our decades of prohibition when absolutely cannabis had been prohibited, there has always been legal sanction on the table, and we have, as some of the other witnesses mentioned, the highest rates of cannabis use among youth in many countries.

I think the point is this. If we rely on those old approaches and ratchet up the punishment for youth with the expectation that doing so is going to adjust behaviour, that's misguided and not borne out by the evidence.

I didn't say there shouldn't be any sort of intervention among youth who are found.... I agree that if my 12-year-old son, for example, came home and had some cannabis, that would be, as they say, a teachable moment. The point is that we probably need to create teachable moments before that happens, but the idea is that there's a conversation, and often that conversation should be with families who are equipped with evidence and equipped with information to share with their own children. It should be available to schoolteachers, guidance counsellors, and others.

For young people, that sort of intervention may very well be effective. Young people don't necessarily want to have confrontations with adults who are doing things. As the other witnesses have said, however, it's all about the approach. We know that criminalizing youth and telling them “don't do it” is a recipe for the opposite to happen, so it's time to rethink the way we're approaching this dialogue with young people.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Dr. Grant, do you have any comments on that?

12:20 p.m.

Member of the Adolescent Health Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Christina Grant

Let me just say that I completely agree.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Dr. Howlett, is Portage, your treatment centre, primarily for marijuana addicts? Is that correct?