Health Committee on Sept. 15th, 2017

[Jacqueline Bogden]

Under the current system licensed producers are allowed to produce dried cannabis and cannabis oil, which can come in many forms.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I understand that. So edibles are not part of that regime. None of that testing regime you described applies to anybody making edibles in this country right now. Am I correct in that?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

Do you mean an individual who is allowed to produce a limited amount of cannabis at home?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Anybody who's making edible products for sale in this country illegally or otherwise is not subjected to that testing regime. That's what I'm trying to establish.

[Jacqueline Bogden]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Right.

Ms. Black, one of your recommendations is:

Ensure legal access to cannabis products in all of its various forms and potencies, including but not limited to: herbal cannabis, capsules, tinctures, topicals, resins, finished edible products. Otherwise patients will continue to access them in the unregulated market. This move would bring federal policy in line with the recent Supreme Court ruling, R vs. Smith 2015.

Can you elaborate on that and maybe explain the reference to the Smith case?

[Hilary Black]

Certainly.

You heard from Kirk Tousaw yesterday evening. I wish he were here today to speak in more detail about that case. My understanding is that the spirit of that ruling essentially ensured that there's charter protection for patients to use cannabis in all its forms. We see at our organization that cannabis can be used in a very broad range of forms, many of which have been named here. I think that if all those products are not included in the legal market moving forward, if these regulations don't follow the spirit of that Supreme Court ruling, even though it's about patients but applying it to the recreational market, that again, we're just going to have all those products being produced in an unregulated environment.

One of my greatest concerns is that some cannabis concentrates for inhalation are currently made with carcinogenic solvents like butane. It's a solvent that people use to make inhalable extracts. If it's not produced correctly, carcinogenic remains can be left in the product. Potent, inhaled products are one of the most important things for the government to regulate.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

In the BC Compassion Club study, what percentage of products are your patients and customers purchasing that fall into the edible concentrate and non-smokable form?

[Marcel Vandebeek]

It's probably roughly about 30%. However, on the edibles, since the City of Vancouver had asked—demanded, essentially—that everybody stop having edibles for sale, we stopped carrying them. Obviously, we wanted to stay compliant with the city bylaws. In the last couple of years that number has been a little hard to figure out, but I'd say roughly 30% to 35%.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

We've heard some testimony on labelling products. I'm wondering what advice you would give this committee on what kind of information should be on a package to help the consumer make an informed choice of cannabis product.

[Hilary Black]

I have some concerns about plain packaging requirements, one being that, again, it will give an advantage to unregulated producers to be able to create colourful or attractive packaging. Anything that you restrict in the legal market that the unregulated market can do is going to create an advantage. In our experience, it's very important to be able to have some product information. Also I think some sort of branding is necessary for consumers to be able to distinguish the producer, what company they're buying cannabis from. I think this place is where this committee will need to find a balance between labelling restrictions and being reasonable about it.

Again, if we look at the way we're able to package alcohol, which we know is more harmful than cannabis, you're able to have product information and some branding, some fonts and colours on the packaging. I think if we want to restrict things like cartoons or things that would specifically draw the attention of children, that's reasonable.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Dispensaries versus pharmacies, do you have any opinion on that?

[Hilary Black]

This is a very complex issue. For a long time, the governing bodies of the pharmacies were saying that they were very opposed to medical cannabis. It is not until quite recently that they have come along, realizing that there is quite a large and profitable business to be had being a distributor of medical cannabis.

I do believe that cannabis should be in pharmacies—that's one way to give equal access to patients across the country—but I absolutely do not think it should be exclusively in pharmacies.

Last year, I had the privilege of organizing a special meeting of patients for the task force on legalization with CFAMM and the Arthritis Society. We had a wonderful half-day meeting with a diverse group of patients, and there were only a few of them who wanted to access cannabis only within a pharmacy.

Mandy McKnight, who is here, will talk to you about the problems she has when she goes to get her pharmaceuticals for Liam in the pharmacy, and how what she really wants is something like what the Compassion Club has, which is a specialized medical cannabis storefront where people can come and we will spend 60 to 90 minutes educating them. We will spend the time talking about all the different possible products and how to take them very safely. We have the experience and expertise to take care of medical cannabis patients in a way that I think is superior to what any pharmacy can provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much, Mr. Davies.

Now we go to Mr. Ayoub.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask the question in French, so if you need to use the earpiece, please do so.

I would like to start with Mr. Vandebeek.

You said earlier that you are making sure you sell cannabis at a price below market price. What do you charge per gram of cannabis?

[Marcel Vandebeek]

It's roughly $4.84 per gram. Normally, we purchase by the pound, so it's pro-rated.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you. That largely answers my questions on that. I had heard that it was selling for up to $10 a gram, and even more at different levels. It is important to make sure to eliminate the black and illegal market and organized crime. You also mentioned that your suppliers are clear and that they are not involved in organized crime. That's one of your findings. You are aware of this and approve of this way of operating. That's what I understood.

[Marcel Vandebeek]

Yes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Bogden, you said that there are 58 authorized producers and that 275 inspections have been made across Canada. Have you ever seen a breach that has permitted the infiltration of organized crime? Have any producers had their licence withdrawn or changed as a result of any infiltration by organized crime?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

That's a very good question. The answer is no. Part of that is in the design of the system, the various strict controls that we have up front in relation to security and who can be involved in this.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I have another question for you because of your answer.

I believe that Rick Barnum, the deputy commissioner and provincial commanding officer of the Ontario Provincial Police Investigation and Organized Crime Command, mentioned here in his testimony this week that there is no doubt that organized crime has infiltrated medical cannabis producers in Canada. Is it all producers or only a few? I don't know, but he was very assertive in his testimony.

What's your response to this?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

I can categorically say, with respect to the licensed producers, that this is untrue, to our knowledge. If anyone had evidence to the contrary, it would be very important to bring it to the attention of the RCMP and others, and ultimately us, if there was a concern of that kind.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Right.

Clearly, further research is needed to get an answer. I think Mr. Barnum's statement is certainly worrying.

I'll move onto something else now.

I fully understood what Ms. Black, Mr. Zaid and Ms. Elisma are asking. In terms of the drug identification number, the DIN, neither the industry nor the producers have made any such request.

If I've understood correctly, cannabis is in a different class. It's a plant product and, to some extent, a medicinal product. Although much scientific research has already been done, more needs to be done to demonstrate it administratively.

If you were asked to amend the bill so that it contains a customized process for cannabis, what would you recommend? What recommendations would you like to make to the government and the Minister of Health to change the process so that doctors can write a prescription instead of completing an authorization form? So, instead of a long form, there would be something quicker and standard, as there is for a drug.

[Jacqueline Bogden]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for that question. That's a question that actually the task force on cannabis legalization considered in its deliberations on the medical access system given the input and feedback that it received from patients and advocates about whether there couldn't be a separate pathway considered in order to be able to authorize these drugs, or a different way to do it. I think that after careful consideration and deliberation, the task force came to the conclusion that the system that exists now can work, that the government should do what it can to encourage research, including by making the changes that it is making through this legislation, which would encourage research at the preclinical or clinical level and at universities, or research that might be funded by licensed producers. The system that we have works, and by encouraging research, we will probably see increased research in those areas that will lead to market authorization for cannabis in its dried or other forms.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Until now, we have only been able to see a failure or at least a shortfall, since nobody, not even a producer, has made a request. I don't like to assume things, but in this case, I guess it's probably because they're already taking note of failure. Even before they apply, the producers know that they will not meet the eligibility requirements, which means that they aren't applying. Without an application from producers, there is no identification number, and doctors can't write a prescription, since they don't have assurance that the product is not a problem from a medical perspective. It is an endless cycle. Nothing will happen unless the process is changed.

The medical benefits of marijuana have already been recognized elsewhere. Here, however, there is an administrative shortfall, which needs to be addressed. Several years later, there is still no solution. It's a gap that needs to be addressed quickly.

That's what I would recommend if I were in your shoes.