Health Committee on Sept. 19th, 2017

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I would not say it's healthier, no, and again—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

As a matter of fact, I think it's five times more toxic.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Yes—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'm curious, do you have an endgame? Like, we obviously have recognized that cigarette smoking is not a good idea. The government has decided that maybe the best thing to do is to tax it, to really heavily tax it, and we've reduced our smoking significantly. Is there an endgame with this legislation? Are we thinking about doing the same here? Are we going to tax the product so that people will steer away from it because it's not good for them?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Bill C-45's objective is very clear—to legalize cannabis, to strictly regulate, and to restrict access to children.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I know that.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's really what we want to do.

With respect to the market as it is right now, we see that 100% of the profits are going to the black market. By regulating our system, we truly want to make sure that people will have access to a safe product, and then, from there, it's getting the profits out of the hands of criminals.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

But isn't that a double standard? We've determined that cigarette smoking is not good.

I'm going to tell you a little story. I had the tobacco people come into my office one time and they were really upset about the fact that the first nations people were selling tobacco. We got talking about that and I told them my problem. The government has taxed this to a point where it is now lucrative for organized crime. As a matter of fact, I don't know if people know this, but a bale of tobacco at that time was $75,000. It was more lucrative to sell tobacco than it was to sell marijuana. The tobacco company is selling a product that we know is harmful to people's health, and the first nations groups are selling it illegally. I told them I didn't really know who the criminals were.

Are we going to have an issue...? Maybe I can direct this to somebody else.

Mr. Goodale, maybe you can help me with this too. I really hope we have an endgame and that we're not going to make this cheaper and more of a product that appeals to youth because it's cheaper. Are we going to then tax it so that we now have a new problem such that maybe groups like first nations will say it's entirely within their purview and they will start marketing the stuff? Have we thought about that?

You can see where my line of questioning is going. There seems to be a whole lot of things you haven't thought about that you maybe should.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We've been guided in much of our analysis by the extensive and very good work of the task force.

The issue of pricing and taxation is a very serious issue that both the Minister of Finance and his provincial counterparts are seized with right at this very moment to determine what kind of fiscal regime will apply here to enable governments to defray the costs that are involved, but at the same time, not create the very thing that you're worried about, which is a black market. Therefore, the finance ministers have to deliberate very carefully about what fiscal rules will apply to cannabis in order to be sure they are not inadvertently creating a black market, because that's exactly what we would not want to do.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I share something with Mr. Blair in policing. I have three sons who are policemen. I like to think sometimes I'm a little bit of a libertarian. One time in the course of conversation we got talking about the legalization of marijuana. I said, “I'm a libertarian. I think if people want to smoke, let them smoke.” I have to tell you, they came on me like white on rice. These are my police officer sons. They said I was out of my mind. They started to list.... I don't have time to talk about the issues they talked about.

This is the police force. These are the people who are on the front line, and I have yet to meet anybody...with the exception of Mr. Blair. I'm sure there are others, but I haven't met them yet. How many people in law enforcement are just telling us to put the brakes on, that we don't know what we're doing, and that we have to understand that there are implications here that we haven't dealt with yet? Why aren't you listening to those groups and why don't we get a little bit of a sense of calmness from that group if you indeed have been dialoguing with them?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There are very serious implications of maintaining the status quo. The status quo has made Canadian teenagers the heaviest users of marijuana in the western world.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

But do we know why?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The status quo is putting $7 billion a year into the hands of organized crime. Delaying a solution is simply perpetuating the existing failure. We have to change from failure to a new regime that offers in fact some better prospect of success to protect our kids and to slow down and hopefully stop organized crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to Mr. Ayoub.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am very glad that the witnesses are here to answer some important questions.

As I said last week—

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Sorry, Mr. Chair. My apologies, there is no translation.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

No problem. Let's start again, then.

I wanted to thank you. We are very privileged to have all three of you here to answer some important questions.

As I said last week, we have waited long enough. There is an urgency to act. You said, Mr. Goodale, that it's been a long time that we've had a system that isn't working. We need to move forward.

By way of information, I had a town hall meeting last week in my riding, and 130 people attended. It was said that 45% of young people in my riding have used marijuana in the past year. If I say there is an urgency to act, it's because Canadian statistics are catastrophic. We looked at the reasons why the percentages were so high.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I would like to take stock of education. As with alcohol and cigarettes, education is important. Parents, people around us, society and governments have an impact on what young people use or don't use. In the context of the legalization of marijuana, what is done or planned in terms of education needs to raise awareness among our young people, to reduce marijuana use and ensure that they don't use it at a young age. If they decide to use it later, it must be in full knowledge of the facts.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much for your question.

First of all, I would like to say that the awareness campaign is a priority for us.

We have learned from the experience of our American neighbours. They regretted not having educated the public before the legislation came into effect.

For us, an investment of $9.6 million is only the beginning.

We recognize that we must raise awareness and educate young people so that they know the consequences of marijuana use. We need to have an honest discussion with our children. We want to equip parents and young people to ensure that they receive the right information.

We have established partnerships with agencies that have created tools and are developing others. We also want to ensure we reach out to young people by using the same tools they use, including social media. So different measures will be included in the awareness campaign.

I repeat that encouraging dialogue with young people is an important aspect, a key aspect in the awareness process. We want to ensure that young people know the warning signs, the symptoms and outcomes of marijuana use.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I trust your words, and I strongly encourage you to continue your outreach efforts. I know that it's important for you. Awareness is the first step, and this requires investment. So I encourage my government to invest much more in awareness and education to improve understanding.

Mr. Goodale, I would like to talk about personal production and the number of plants. One of my colleagues asked how we were going to manage to thwart production and manage prices. If personal production is allowed, will it reduce interest by organized crime in growing marijuana and selling it on a market where the price is much lower? In fact, individual consumers, the target audience, will now no longer need to go and see criminals. Adults and kids currently have to do business with criminals to get cannabis. Is there a correlation here?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The point you make is really quite important and quite valid. Right now, the production and distribution is entirely, 100% in the hands of criminal organizations, apart from the medicinal portion that has been carved out for a number of years by Health Canada. The objective is to remove from those criminal organizations the effective monopoly, to take away the profit incentive, and to establish a regulated production regime where we can have greater control over quality and the standards that would apply, and where the profits are earned legally and not illegally, and therefore achieve greater public health and safety as a consequence of that.

Will the new regime be absolutely perfect and 100% successful? We hope so. That would certainly be our goal. Under a new legal framework with strict regulation and control, we believe we'll be far more successful at public health and safety than the regime that has existed for 90-some years, which has obviously been an abject failure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Time's up, and now we go back to Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister Goodale, Ontario Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne recently announced that her government plans to retail cannabis through a government-owned control board. Last week the committee learned that the State of Colorado, in fact any state, could not pursue such a model of public distribution because it would have put state employees in the position of breaking federal U.S. law by trafficking in cannabis.

Minister, given that employees of the cannabis control board of Ontario will be involved in the sale of cannabis, will this affect their admissibility to the United States in your view?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

No, because they have not violated any American law.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

To the Minister of Justice, Michael Spratt, a lawyer, testified before this committee that Bill C-45—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Let me just say that they have not violated any law, not just American law.