Health Committee on June 22nd, 2020

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

What's the status of train travel right now for passengers in Canada? I guess that would depend on a lot of the provincial regulations, province to province.

[Kevin Brosseau]

Intercity rail passengers are governed by Transport Canada. VIA Rail just announced that passengers will be wearing masks. We also put in mandatory health checks. Questions are being asked of all rail passengers before they take a train within Canada. That was put in some time ago to ensure that no one who exhibited the symptoms of COVID was permitted to travel.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We will go now to Mr. Thériault.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is about air transportation. The United States and the vast majority of European countries have taken steps to force the hand of the airlines. The government's financial assistance for the pandemic period is conditional on a guarantee that travellers will be refunded. Air France and KLM announced on May 15 that their customers would be refunded.

The minister came to the defence of the airlines by claiming that, if they had to pay back their customers, they would not survive the crisis because they do not have the financial means to do so.

Why not force the airlines to refund their customers before they receive federal support?

[Lawrence Hanson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport]

With regard to the voucher policies in the United States and Europe, both the United States Department of Transportation and the European Commission had indicated that airlines would be absolutely required to provide refunds. I will say that our understanding, to date at least, is that this has not been fully enforced in the United States, and that although the European Commission took the position it did, a number of key European Union members are not requiring, at least to this point, their carriers to actually provide refunds.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Do you feel this would actually cause a financial issue for carriers like Air Canada and Air Transat?

We know that Air Canada was withholding $2.6 billion in prepaid passenger revenue and that Air Transat was withholding $8.9 million in customer deposits and deferred revenue.

Why not require them to refund travellers before they can get financial support?

[Lawrence Hanson]

I will note that our sense of the economic situation of the airlines is that it could be significantly problematic for them to provide refunds at this time. It's important to note, I think, that they have not really been obtaining any revenues for some period of time now.

Obviously, the immediate forward picture also does not look particularly great for airlines to increase revenues. To suddenly require paying out the refunds all at once, which would be in the billions of dollars, could have very significant economic consequences for airlines. It would obviously vary among the airlines...and given the amount of outstanding vouchers that they do have, but we do believe the economic consequences could be serious indeed.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Hanson, were you given access to the accounting records of these companies to confirm that you have a fair and accurate idea of the impact this could have on them? Also, what about the impact on consumers, who do not have $2.6 billion in their pockets?

That money does not belong to Air Canada. It belongs to the consumers who have not received service. Do you agree with me?

[Lawrence Hanson]

I would be clear from the outset that I absolutely understand and I in no way mean to diminish the materiality of this for individual Canadians who have booked travel that they cannot use right now or be refunded for.

I would say in terms of airlines and their economic impact that obviously the airlines themselves have been clear, up to a certain point, about the economic impact on their companies. You can see it by the cutbacks that have happened and so forth. Beyond that, obviously, I wouldn't be in a position to speak to anything that is commercial confidential information from the airlines.

Lastly, I think it's probably worth noting that under existing legislative authorities, were it even desirous to do so, it is not something where the government could just go in and legally demand that refunds be provided based on existing authorities. The existing airline tariffs never contemplated an event of this kind. Our air regulations, our passenger regulations, are premised on the idea of airlines being responsible for helping people to complete their journey, which is impossible right now, obviously, so the refund provisions were ultimately dependent on the individual tariffs—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Hanson, did you require the airlines to give you access to their financial data so that you could see the big picture, or did you take what they told you at face value?

Would you agree to have them file their accounting records with the Auditor General?

[Lawrence Hanson]

I can't speak to being able to legally require private companies to provide their books. I would say—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

When a country provides financial support, it must be able to require things in return.

Why are we not requiring anything? We accept that $2.6 billion in consumers' money is being withheld. Some of them will only go on one trip in their entire life, and they are being told it will happen at some point in the next two years. We do not even know how long the pandemic will last for those travellers.

Why will you not pay them back? That money does not belong to the company. Do you agree with me? It belongs to the consumers, not the airline.

[Lawrence Hanson]

Chair, one thing to note to date is to know that for the assistance the member speaks of—for example, the large employer emergency facility financing—there is an application process for that. That process obviously is conducted on a commercial confidential basis. There is at present no requirement that airlines undertake a specific activity related to the refunds in order to be eligible for that facility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

Go ahead, Mr. Davies, for six minutes, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Given that COVID-19 cases are spiking right now and growing by 5% or more in 27 states across the United States, including Arizona, California, Texas and Florida, why isn't the federal government collecting data on COVID-19 in the trucking industry?

Mr. Brosseau.

[Kevin Brosseau]

I'll say that we work very closely with the Canadian transportation association and other trucking organizations to be able to do what we can to ensure that truckers, the essential workers who are carrying goods across borders, are in fact kept safe. In fact, that work includes regular conversations with them associated with what issues they are facing, including being exposed to COVID-19.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I understand. That sounds like you're doing it on an anecdotal basis.

Would you not agree with me, given that our long-haul truck drivers are crossing the United States, which has the largest number of COVID-19 cases in the world and growing, that it might be a good idea for our border officials to be gathering data in a systematic way on where these truckers are going, who they're being exposed to and perhaps to have some sort of organized testing program? Would that not be a logical program for Transport Canada to put in place?

[Kevin Brosseau]

Again, Mr. Chair, I think with the constant dialogue that we have with truckers, whether it's border agencies that carry out that work, I would leave that question to the CBSA, but we definitely have that ongoing work. We also work closely with provinces and territories to gather data and populate the national collision database, for example. I think that's an important piece to identify as well.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Fair enough.

Moving to the airline industry, how many individuals with confirmed cases of COVID-19 have been identified as having travelled on Canadian flights to date?

[Kevin Brosseau]

For the answer to that question, Mr. Chair, I'm going to turn to one of my colleagues, if that's okay. Mr. Robinson or Ms. Nixon may know the answer to that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Certainly. Go ahead.

[Wendy Nixon, Director General, Aviation Security, Department of Transport]

The number of active cases is actually tracked by the Public Health Agency as part of the tracking that CBSA does at border crossings, so as people arrive and depart, we do get notified. It's not a significant number in recent weeks because of the travel volumes being so diminished, but they are the ones who track that. I'd be happy to follow up afterward with some additional information on the number of cases.

Thank you.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Nixon.

Mr. Brosseau, are rail passengers required to wear non-medical masks or face coverings?

[Kevin Brosseau]

They are not required, Mr. Chair, to wear masks at this time.