Health Committee on Oct. 19th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number two of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health. The committee is meeting today to discuss committee business.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to start the meeting by providing you with some information following the motion that was adopted in the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020.

The committee is now sitting in a hybrid format, meaning that members can participate either in person or by video conference. All members, regardless of their method of participation, will be counted for the purpose of a quorum. The committee's power to sit, however, is limited by the party use of House resources, which is determined by the whips.

All questions must be decided by recorded vote unless the committee disposes of them by unanimous consent or on division.

Finally, the committee may deliberate in camera, providing that it takes into account the potential risks to confidentiality inherent to such deliberations with remote participants.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Webcasts will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. For those participating virtually, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference.

I'll remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Should members need to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state that they have a point of order. If a member wishes to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair your interest to speak and create a speakers list. In order to do so, you should click on “participants” at the bottom of the screen. When the list pops up you will see that next to your name you can click “raise hand”.

When speaking, speak slowly and clearly. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely. Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair and please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes as needed to ensure all members are able to participate fully.

For those participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Should you wish to get my attention, signal me with a hand gesture or, at an appropriate time, call out my name. Should you wish to raise a point of order, wait for an appropriate time and indicate to me clearly that you wish to raise a point of order.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

I see we have a speakers list. First on the list is Ms. Rempel Garner.

Ms. Rempel Garner, please go ahead.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I move:

That, pursuant to standing order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Health commence a study on the emergency situation facing Canadians in light of the second wave of the COVID-19 pandemic, and that this study evaluate, review and examine all issues relevant to this situation; and

that this study begin no later than October 20, 2020, that the Committee table its findings in the House upon completion, that the government provide a response to these findings within 30 sitting days, and that evidence and documentation received by the Committee during its study of the Canadian response to the outbreak of the corona virus commenced during the 1st Session of the 43rd Parliament be taken into consideration by the Committee in the current study, and that each party will be entitled to one witness per one hour witness panel, and two witnesses per two hour witness panel; and

That in order to fully study this emergency situation:

(a) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records from the Prime Minister’s Office, the Privy Council Office, the Office of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Office of the Minister of Health, Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada, concerning options, plans and preparations for the Global Public Health Integration Network, since January 1, 2018, provided that these documents, organized by department, shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within thirty days of the adoption of this motion;

(b) an order of the committee do issue for a record of all communications between the government and the World Health Organization in respect of options, plans or preparations for any future operation, or absence thereof, of the Global Public Health Integration Network, since January 1, 2018 provided that these documents, organized by department, shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within thirty days of the adoption of this motion;

(c) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes and other records from the Prime Minister’s Office, the Privy Council Office, the office of the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, the office of the Minister of Health, Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada, concerning plans, preparations, approvals and purchasing of rapid testing products including rapid tests, reagents, swabs, laboratory equipment and other material related to rapid tests and rapid testing applications used in the diagnosis of COVID-19, since March 19th, 2020, provided that these documents, organized by department, shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within thirty days of the adoption of this motion;

(d) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes and other records from the Prime Minister’s Office, the Privy Council Office, the office of the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, the office of the Minister of Health, Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada concerning plans, preparations and purchasing of personal protective equipment including gowns, gloves, masks, respirators, visors and face shields since, March 19th, 2020, provided that these documents, organized by department, shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within thirty days of the adoption of this motion;

(f) that, to protect against the premature disclosure of national security matters, or personal privacy information, contained in the documents provided to the clerk prior to the release of the documents by the Clerk of the Committee, any potential redactions be undertaken by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, provided that the process for redactions begin the day after the documents have been provided to the clerk of the committee, and shall last no longer than seven days, unless granted an extension by unanimous vote of the committee, and (i) that redactions be limited to the protection of national security matters, or personal privacy information to the exclusion of all other reasons, and (ii) that in the event of a request for an extension the request be accompanied by the release of all documents for which redactions have already been completed, and (iii) that in the event of multiple requests for extension, all documents for which redactions have been completed since the last request for an extension must accompany any additional requests for extension, and (iv) no request for an extension may exceed seven days and all extensions shall be granted only by unanimous vote of the members of the committee

(g) Seven days after all documents have been provided to the Clerk of the Committee or the deadlines for their production have elapsed, as the case may be, and the redaction process mentioned in subparagraph (b)(ii) has concluded, invite the Minister of Health, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry each to appear separately before the committee for at least three hours, provided that in respect of each of them who does not agree, within one week of the adoption of this motion, to accept this invitation for the length of time prescribed, the Chair shall be instructed to report to the House forthwith a recommendation that this committee be empowered to order his or her appearance from time to time.

Mr. Chair, it has now been over a week since this matter was first discussed in this committee. I firmly believe we need to move on with this. I realize that certain members of the committee last time tried to extend the meeting so that this wouldn't come to a vote. I think we need to move on.

We were prorogued for some time. The documents I've mentioned here for production are all relevant to the study, and we need to move on with this. It is is a very reasonable motion. It allows all members of the committee to look at areas related to the pandemic that are of interest to them and their community or broader constituency groups. It allows each political party to have one witness per panel, and we're going to have the documentation that we need as parliamentarians to review the government's response.

I'm in Ottawa today and I would just like to say that I feel for the restaurants in this city that have perhaps taken out the last of their savings to stay open over the last few months and have been shut down again. Toronto and a large part of Quebec are in this situation, and I think about my home province of Alberta, where we're seeing cases on the rise too.

It's very incumbent on this committee to dispose of this matter, to move on and study this, so that we can come up with a plan for Canadians. I'm really hoping that members of this committee will allow this motion to come to a vote today so that we can move on. I'm hoping, given that members of the committee have had over a week to review the substantive components of this motion, that we can just move on with life.

I would encourage all members to support this. I think it's in the best interests of all of our constituents. I purposely tried to word it in a way such that it's non-partisan. We're looking for answers and for a way forward, so I come to you in a spirit of collaboration whereby we can work together across party lines to get some answers and provide the government with a path forward and some recommendations that they can look at and can possibly give Canadians some hope, especially those who are being faced with isolation and more shutdowns.

That is the spirit of this motion. I strongly hope that the Liberals don't filibuster it this time, that we can vote in favour of it and that we can move on and start planning our study.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

I note that you keep referring to “this time”. This matter was not voted on before. This is a new motion, and in a spirit of collaboration, I would appreciate getting a copy of it so that I can review it. I believe the other members would prefer to have a copy as well.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Chair, I can send it along.

Because it's my understanding that some members of the Liberal Party may not want a prescriptive list of all the study areas, all I've done is remove the prescriptive list from the motion I put forward on Friday, because the opening text of the motion that I presented a week ago Friday already includes all areas related to the pandemic.

I also added a line related to every party's having at least one witness per panel. I think this is pretty reasonable and pretty standard operating procedure. It will give clarity to you as chair concerning how to put witness panels together for this study.

In this way, every member and every political party can decide what's important to them in the study of this matter. For me, many of the issues related in the document production order were material.

The other thing is that for clarity I believe I removed one paragraph related to ventilators, because it was already included in one of the document production orders anyway. That was it.

It should be pretty easy for the government to support this. There's nothing in it, I think, that is inflammatory language or partisan. This is really about getting answers for the health committee and moving forward in a productive way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Have you sent that motion to me?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I've been talking, so no.

To be honest with you, Chair, I wasn't sure if you'd recognized me first or not. I'm happy to do that while we're sitting here. It is in order.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I'm new to all this. I've been here a year, but I'm not sure on what you can ask as a point of order. Can I ask for us to have five minutes to discuss this? I don't even remember everything that was in that motion. I think we have to look at it a little before we decide what to do with it. Is it possible to recess for five minutes to get a copy of this and to read it again?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

On that point of order, I will say something. If this is a ploy to permanently suspend the meeting today, I would not be in favour of that. I want to register my objection that, if this is to give you direction to shut the meeting down so that we don't come to a vote, as we've seen in other committees, I don't support that. I think that would be fairly bad.

I'm happy to suspend for five minutes to give me a chance to send it around to folks, but I would ask that you commit to reconvening at 11:30 a.m. eastern at the latest.

I want to say to my colleagues, come prepared to these meetings. I understand that Liberals may have sent motions around, and I'm assuming that, had they gotten the floor, they might have moved this. I was prepared to amend that motion on the fly. People should be coming to these committees prepared. When I walk through the changes that I made to a motion on Friday, you should be able to do that on the fly too.

I'm happy to suspend to 11:30, but beyond that we need to move on with life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr Chair, I think everyone here is trying to come together in the spirit of collaboration and co-operation and not just say hollow words. However, when I hear a lecture coming to us from Michelle Rempel Garner on being prepared, it's hard to be prepared for motions when you get them while you're live on television. There seems to be a complete and utter lack of credibility in saying, "Be ready for something that I'm going to send you while you're on Zoom." I find that utterly ridiculous.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

On that point of order, Mr. Chair, in a committee business meeting, anybody can move anything they want on a study. It's our job as parliamentarians to be ready. That was a little patronizing—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Not at all.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

—and it's also a little ridiculous to think that you can't come prepared to a committee business meeting, especially when I walked through what the changes were.

Anyway, I think this is the best course of action forward. I would support a 10-minute recess to 11:30 a.m. I will send this around, and then perhaps members can review that quickly and we can move forward.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Chair, may I say something?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

Mr. Kelloway, go ahead.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

The only way for us to clearly understand the motions that come before us is by having time to look at them before they come.

If the member is saying that we should all be Kreskin, that's a metaphysical discussion we should probably have at a later date.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Mr. Chair, on this point of order, if I may, Ms. Rempel Garner's point here is that this motion is 98% what was presented to this committee more than a week ago. I had it in front of me. I followed along with the changes that were made. For Mr. Kelloway to say that this is somehow a whole new motion that we just threw on the floor here today I think is completely disingenuous.

As members of this committee, we are dealing with one of the most important issues all of our constituents want us to be talking about. This motion is part of that. They want to see a strategy, a runway, to how we get through this. That also includes how we got here. This is a matter of trust. This motion is very detailed and it is almost identical to the motion that was tabled in this committee more than a week ago.

For the members of this committee from the Liberal Party to be saying that we're somehow submarining them or dropping this dictionary upon them is really unfair. To say this is some sort of Kreskin mind reading ploy I don't think is fair. If we take five or 10 minutes, as Ms. Rempel Garner has offered to do to review this motion and the small changes that are part of this motion that was tabled in this committee more than a week ago, I think that is totally fair.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Chair, on that point of order, it's great that Mr. Barlow has it in front of him. We don't. I don't know if it has been—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Barlow doesn't have the motion.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I have the previous motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, everyone. Mr. Fisher has the floor.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Chair, we don't have this. I'm not sure if Mr. Thériault has this in front of him in French. If Mr. Barlow says he does have it in front of him, that's great. We would like to have this in front of us in English and French.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Mr. Chair, every word is important. We need to review it, and with due respect to Mr. Thériault, if it is bilingual, they need to read it in French too. I want to ask Ms. Rempel Garner whether it is bilingual, which Mr. Thériault can read in French, because we have to respect our other party, too, the Bloc Québécois.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Chair, on that point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Sorry. I'm going to recognize Mr. Davies first. He hasn't had a chance to speak.

Mr. Davies.