Health Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Philippe Dufresne]

I've reported to the committee on the situation and what I've received. Then it's up to the committee to make its determination as to whether it's satisfied with what has been produced and how.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Are there any statutory obligations that you can think of, whether it's the Criminal Code, the National Security Act, the Evidence Act, any statutes at all that you are familiar with in terms of parliamentary jurisprudence that would justify any member of the government or public official refusing to produce documents to the House of Commons when demanded to do so?

[Philippe Dufresne]

There are no statutes that I'm aware of that have limited the privileges of the House to send for papers and persons. There are statutes that indicate public policy considerations, and Speakers' rulings have indicated these ought to be considered by the House, but it's up to the House. There has been no limit to the privileges of the House in terms of its ability.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

This is my final question.

On October 26, 2020, federal procurement minister Anita Anand told Canadians that the office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel—that's you, sir,—wouldn't have the necessary expertise in procurement to properly redact records related to the production order.

Do you believe that you're office has the necessary expertise to carry out the redaction instructions of the House of Commons?

[Philippe Dufresne]

We do. In terms of factual information, the government may be in possession of information, for instance, talking about the impact on contractual negotiations. The government may well be in possession of the information, which is why the approach that we've taken is that the government can propose to my office areas that it feels ought to be redacted and kept confidential. We consider those very carefully. That's how we've approached it in terms of any factual information that we would not have, the government or any party can provide it to us.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, sir. I think what we're seeing here is what you would call a cover-up.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

That ends round one of questions. We will start round two with the Conservatives.

Would that be Ms. Rempel Garner?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Yes. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm very interested in what my colleague Mr. Davies was alluding to with regard to building a case about a cover-up and the responsibility of parliamentarians. I will cede my time to him to allow him to keep questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

Mr. Davies, apparently you're up again.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to continue on with that because it's easy to identify.... I think there are a few members of this committee who are old enough to remember Watergate in the United States. I certainly do. It's a little harder to recognize it when it's close to home.

Mr. Dufresne, I'm going to take you back to 2011, when Speaker Milliken ruled on something extremely similar to this. The House of Commons passed a motion ordering the then Harper Conservative government to produce documents to the House related to the Afghan detainee issue. When they refused, what was the finding of Mr. Milliken, sir?

[Philippe Dufresne]

The finding was that this was a prima facie question of privilege. Mr. Milliken dealt with the issue of a claim by the government of national security and found that, at the end of the day, the House has the ability as part of its privileges to seek the information. That said, Speaker Milliken did say there were important responsibilities on both sides of the House, that both sides ought to try to work together to find a way that would allow the role of the House as the grand inquest of the nation and the role of the government as defender of the realm to be met. That's what was asked, and that's what occurred in that case.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That's exactly right. I was just going to say that's exactly what did happen. The response of the government then was not to resist production of documents and to run off to Federal Court, but rather the Harper government sat down with the opposition and they worked out a compromise such that those documents would be produced for a special committee that had certain parameters around it to examine the documents.

Is that correct, sir?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Has that been offered in this case by the current Trudeau government?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I can only talk about the fact that the proposed redactions have been made to some of the documents received, so that's a determination that's been made by the government, which I have not been able to see behind.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Of course, in this case what happened is that the Trudeau government unilaterally decided, without any negotiation with the opposition, to send those documents, to NSICOP in one case, but they haven't done anything with respect to these health documents, have they? Has the government proposed anything to you about how those 990,000 pages that remain, at least, might be handled?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Well, as I've indicated, the government has been in contact with me and with my office in terms of informing us that we're going to be getting batches on a monthly basis, so we are in communication. The outstanding issue remains that some of those redactions we can't see behind.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Dufresne, when was the last time you received a batch of documents from this government?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I would have to verify this. I believe it was in April, as part of that regular batch of documents. That's my understanding.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Did you receive any documents in May?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I'm looking to Mr. Bédard to see if he can confirm whether we've received...? We might have to get back to you later on that, or perhaps in writing, sir. I apologize.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm looking for my dates. My information is that the last batch of documents you received was in April, sir. Could I be correct about that?

[Philippe Dufresne]

That's my initial understanding, subject to confirmation.