Go ahead, Dr. Ellis.
Evidence of meeting #102 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was illness.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #102 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was illness.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
When you look at the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition, which talks about mental illness, suicidal ideation is an essential part of the diagnosis of, for instance, depression.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
You are somebody with a history within the medical profession. If you have somebody who has tried absolutely everything and has been suffering with a mental illness for decades, at what point...one decade, two decades, three decades? How long should it be before that person has autonomy over their own decision?
Would you not recognize the difference in somebody who has been suffering for many decades and who is trying to get service versus somebody who is in a mental health crisis?
9:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Minister, I'm not talking about irremediability. I'm talking about suicidality, which you said was something that came on suddenly. I forget your exact words, but clearly that's not the case.
The second part of it is irremediability. What we know clearly about irremediability with respect to mental illness is that it's impossible to prove. There are many cases—yours, perhaps, being one of them—of people who have gotten better from a mental illness. Here we are today talking about irremediability, and we know that those two things, suicidality and irremediability, are in no way related to systems.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
Irremediable means that you aren't able to remedy it. It means that it doesn't get better. You don't get out of it. It means that somebody is trapped in an illness that doesn't allow them....
Frankly, it gets back to the point about physical suffering and mental suffering and how when there's an illness, it is a very different thing from a mental health crisis. A mental health crisis is something you can get out of. A mental illness that is irremediable can't be remediated.
9:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Minister, those are your words. They're not mine.
Is diabetes irremediable?
9:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Mental illness is not manageable. Is that what you're saying?
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
You've talked to doctors. I've talked to doctors. There are certain mental illnesses that people have not been able to escape, just as there are—
9:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.
I just want to say that in the last panel we said that rules should be followed, and there should be no interruptions, please.
9:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
That's fine, Mr. Chair. I'll just make this point very briefly.
Cancer is irremediable.
9:20 p.m.
Conservative
9:20 p.m.
Conservative
9:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
I don't understand the point of trying to make an equivalency between multiple different illnesses.
9:20 p.m.
Conservative
9:20 p.m.
Liberal
9:20 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
If I might remind you, Minister, I'm the one asking the questions. If I have a question for you, as part of this committee, you need to answer it.
The second part that we need to get to, clearly, is that this particular program that you have has a lack of safeguards. Substance-use disorders, mental illness, post-traumatic stress disorder—for which your government has offered MAID to veterans—are mental illnesses, as is autism.
How are you going to square your circle with respect to irremediability with regard to those illnesses?
9:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON
First of all, I guess we just have different purposes and discourse. I ask questions to seek clarity and to get on the same page. We're trying to deal with a very difficult issue.
When you're asking me the question about irremediability, I'm trying to say that, if somebody has an irremediable condition—and we're not talking here about some other disease but about mental illness and somebody who's trapped in it—I would ask you the question.... You say that you don't want me to ask questions. The purpose of my question isn't a political point. It's one of clarity.
If somebody is in a situation for 20 years, 30 years or 40 years, at what point, when they themselves are the ones asking—
9:20 p.m.
Liberal