Health Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I didn't want a very elaborate answer. I just wanted to make sure that your three organizations share the same opinion.

Ms. Wilson, do you agree with Ms. Huggins' comments?

[Fiona Wilson]

I'm sorry. I only just turned on my translation. I did not understand the question.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So I will turn to you, Mr. McDonald.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Pardon me. I'm in the same situation as the deputy chief.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, could you tell the witnesses how to turn on the interpretation, as they're not understanding my questions? I'd also like to get my time back, since I'm losing a lot of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes, you won't be disadvantaged by that.

For those of you who are participating remotely, you'll see at the bottom of your screen something that says “Interpretation”. That gives you the choice of listening to the floor here or having simultaneous translation in French or English.

As anglophones, you probably want it on English, and then you'll get the voice of the interpreter when French is being spoken here.

[Fiona Wilson]

Thank you.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I'll go back to my question, Ms. Wilson.

I was just saying that, after hearing from the three police agencies, I get the impression that the decriminalization of simple possession has been seen as having more positive impacts than negative impacts in this fight against the opioid and toxic drug crisis. Do you agree with that statement, which was echoed by Ms. Huggins? I would like a short answer, not a demonstration. I want to move on to my other questions, but before I do, I want to at least establish that.

[Fiona Wilson]

I do not agree with that statement.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I would concur with Deputy Chief Wilson.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You do not agree with the statement that decriminalization has had more positive impacts than negative ones, if I understand correctly. Please explain what you mean.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Thank you.

Yes. I don't agree with that.

I would say there are positive results from decriminalization, as Deputy Chief Wilson has indicated, in terms of the number of people charged with criminal offences and attempts to divert them away from the criminal justice system. However, we note challenges in public consumption and similarly criminal behaviour.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. In terms of the overdose crisis and being able to save lives, take charge of people and direct them to help, you believe that criminalization should be restored. Is that what you're saying, Mr. McDonald? Are you saying that simple possession should be recriminalized?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is decriminalization has not come without its challenges.

For example, since decriminalization, our overdose deaths have not decreased in the province of British Columbia, nor have our overdose rates. We are still in the early stages and there's still much work to be done, but in terms of finite numbers of overdose deaths and rates, they have not decreased since decriminalization. What has decreased is the number of charges with respect to simple possession. We have increased our number of referrals and are working with other agencies to divert people from a pathway of criminality to a pathway of health.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

In your presentation, you say that there are other challenges that worry you, such as the diversion of safer-supply drugs into the illicit drug trade. You say that, through ongoing investigations and collaboration with authorities, you are working to better understand the problem. How are you gaining a better understanding of the problem and where are you at in that understanding? Since you say a little further on that you are developing training and education tools, you must have understood that. Tell us about it.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

One of the challenges of identifying safer supply drugs once they are diverted into the criminal marketplace is that we first have to identify them if they're out of their packaging, and they're often not stamped as safer supply drugs. When we locate prescribed drugs that we believe to be safer supply, we want to be sure that they're properly identified, because we do not want to stigmatize legitimate users of those drugs.

In many cases, safer supply drugs may be diverted from one area through the criminal element to a broader marketplace. You've likely seen the news releases on Prince George and perhaps Campbell River, areas where we have made criminal seizures of safer supply drugs.

It's important to note that we have to train our officers in how to identify those drugs should they not be in the accompanying packaging, or should they not be identified right at the first outset as safer supply drugs, because we want to make sure that we're accurate. When we do seize safe supply drugs, we engage with health authorities in the province of British Columbia so that we can better track and identify those drugs and identify where they've come from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. McDonald.

Mr. Thériault, that's all the time you have.

Next we go to Mr. Johns, please, for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you all for your testimony and especially for your service to the people of our communities and our country.

Ms. Wilson, you're the deputy chief constable with the Vancouver Police Department, but you've also had a long career in law enforcement with lots of frontline experience, including walking the beat in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. We know that drug use is a long-standing issue and that things have become increasingly complex in recent years.

Can you tell us about what has changed over the last 10 years or so with illicit drugs and the opioid epidemic from a policing perspective?

[Fiona Wilson]

The most significant thing that's changed over the last number of years is the toxicity of the illicit drugs. It's only in the last 10 years or so that we're seeing the incredible toxicity in the drug supply, which is really what's contributing to overdose deaths. Unfortunately, initiatives like decriminalization are not going to change that fact. It's the drug supply that is killing people. It's not that they're using too much but that the drug supply itself is toxic.

I'd say that's the single largest change that I've seen in my 25-year policing career.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The BC Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police both came out with policy statements supporting decriminalization, supporting a safer supply to replace the toxic drugs that you're talking about.

There's been a lot of media focus around diversion lately. The B.C. RCMP recently issued a statement saying that the presence of confirmed safer supply prescriptions are in the minority of drug seizures.

Maybe you can tell me this: Is diversion of prescribed medications in drug seizures something new, something that started with the introduction of pharmaceutical alternatives? Also, from a policing perspective, what drugs are having the biggest impact in driving the toxic drug overdose crisis?

[Fiona Wilson]

Diversion of prescription medication is nothing new. When I walked the beat in the Downtown Eastside 25 years ago, there was always somebody standing at Main and Hastings offering T3s, for example, so the issue of diversion is not new.

I think the devil's in the details when we're talking about diversion, because there's certainly diversion of prescription medication, which is different from, but inclusive of, the diversion of the safe supply medicine chain.

Then of course there is what is a much more pressing issue to me as a police leader: the matter of counterfeit pills that are produced, and can be produced, in very large quantities. The problem with that is they look exactly like prescription pills, so the possibility of someone dying as a result of taking what they think is a diverted prescription is actually quite high, because we don't know what's actually contained in those counterfeit pills. From an organized crime perspective, that can be really scaled up. Unlike diverted prescriptions or diverted safe supply, which is very limited and more of a street level phenomenon, the issue of counterfeit prescription medication is capable of really scaling up, and that's a huge issue. Certainly, that's one thing.

When it comes to what is the most deadly part of our drug supply, it's fentanyl, absolutely, since 85% of overdose deaths are attributable to fentanyl. Then come cocaine and then methadone.

What we don't see, at least not in Vancouver.... I can't speak for the whole province on this, despite the fact that I am here in my capacity as president of the British Columbia Association of Chiefs of Police. I don't know the nuances in all communities across the province, but in Vancouver that's where our focus is, because that's what people are dying from according to the coroner's data. They're not dying from diverted safe supply and they're not actually dying from diverted prescription medication; they're dying from fentanyl, coke and meth, and that's where we really focus our enforcement efforts.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Would you say that the deadly fentanyl is easier to access than the diverted hydromorphone on the street?

[Fiona Wilson]

I would say it's more prolific. There's more of it.

In British Columbia, we have somewhere between 4,500 and 5,000 people who are on a bona fide safe supply program, so there's a limited amount of drugs to be diverted. The same goes with prescription medication; it's quite labour-intensive.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Sure. I really appreciate that.

We're here, and we have seen rates in Alberta skyrocket. Overdose deaths have gone up 17%. In Saskatchewan it's 23%. Both provinces are without a safe supply program. B.C. rates have plateaued, it looks like. We're seeing about 46 deaths per 100,000 in B.C. and 44 in Alberta. In Alberta, half of the people who have died between the ages of 20 and 39 have died from toxic drugs.

Would you believe that a safer supply, when you hear the information that's being put out, is the driving cause of toxic drug deaths in British Columbia, or do you believe that's disinformation?

[Fiona Wilson]

We know that's not the case.

Having said that, diversion's an important issue. It's something we're always watching very closely, but we know from coroners' data that diversion is not what's killing people in British Columbia.