Health Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Fiona Wilson]

Absolutely.

Prior to decriminalization, if someone was using drugs in a problematic circumstance—for example, at a playground, bus shelter or beach—community members were able to call 911. Police were able to attend and address that circumstance.

The vast majority of drug users—I've done three tours of duty in the downtown East Side and can assure you of this—have no interest in using drugs around youth and children, for example. However, when those circumstances do arise, it's very important that police have the tools to address them. In the wake of decriminalization, there are many locations where we have absolutely no authority to address problematic drug use because the person appears to be in possession of less than 2.5 grams and they are not in a place that is an exception to the exemption.

We had three exceptions added to the exemption last year in September, which was helpful. They include skate parks and playgrounds. There were a few other exceptions added, so we now have nine exceptions to the exemption. The reality is that there are still a number of other situations in which the public has significant concerns about problematic drug use. When that happens, if it's not in a place that's an exception to the exemption, there's nothing police can do. It is not a police matter in the absence of any other criminal behaviour. If somebody has their family at the beach and there's a person next to them smoking crack cocaine, it's not a police matter, because a beach currently is not an exception to the exemption.

That's what we were hoping to have addressed through a public consumption act. The thing I liked about the bill was that it did not further criminalize people by virtue of their drug use; rather, it required police to ask people to leave. It was their refusal to leave that would have introduced criminal sanctions, as in obstruction. I thought it was a very good balance between what we had previously under the CDSA. It's respecting the rights of people who use drugs but also ensuring that people in our community feel safe. I think that's a very important issue.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Is this a failure of implementation or a flaw in implementation? Is decriminalization, in itself, a faulty principle?

[Fiona Wilson]

I think we all agree that we do not want to criminalize people by virtue of their personal drug use. Those days are gone. We want to support a health-led approach. The problem is, as I said earlier, that the devil is in the details. Quite frankly, police warnings were not heeded in the first instance.

We have situations in which, technically, people could use under 2.5 grams of a variety of illicit substances in a licensed establishment as long as the licensee allowed them to and they weren't contravening any smoking bylaws, for example. That opens up a whole can of worms for police, potentially. If you have a nefarious business owner who has a licensed establishment, technically you could have a situation of an 18-year-old who can use cocaine—assuming the licensee allowed them to do that—but can't order a beer.

These are all things we raised prior to decriminalization taking effect that we don't feel were adequately addressed.

However, we strongly support the notion of not trying to arrest ourselves out of this crisis. That is not going to save lives. In fact, it does quite a bit of harm if it's somebody with a significant addiction that they need medical help with or somebody who needs support. The last thing they need is to be introduced into the criminal justice system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mrs. Goodridge, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to the witnesses for this.

My first question for Ms. Wilson is this: What other exceptions to the exemption would you like to see?

[Fiona Wilson]

Personally, based on this journey I've been on from the very beginning—in fact, initially with the City of Vancouver, then with the province—I would like to see additional exceptions for beaches, bus shelters, being within a certain distance from residential buildings, businesses, the entrances of workplaces, sports fields, parks and places where families and youth could reasonably be expected to be.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Do you think we should have an exemption for drug use in hospitals?

[Fiona Wilson]

Absolutely. One of the things we talked about was private and semi-private places, like, for example, in Tim Hortons or in a McDonald's. Hospitals are another great example.

We consulted with our health authority here in Vancouver. They have been dealing with the matter of people having drugs in their possession for many years, whether it be going into an ambulance or into a hospital. However, the fact is that, once again, when those conditions in a hospital become problematic, there's nothing the police can do about it.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay. I appreciate that.

It's really unfortunate that you guys don't have the tools to do what you need to do to keep our communities safe and to keep people from having new addictions.

My question is simple. Why didn't the Vancouver police arrest the Drug User Liberation Front when they handed out about three thousand dollars' worth of drugs in front of the Vancouver Police Department in 2021?

[Fiona Wilson]

There are all sorts of considerations that go into a decision such as that, including the Crown's likelihood of approving charges. It's not to say that we don't collect evidence with respect to that incident and others similar, but we do have a number of things we have to consider, including the Crown's directive with respect to their drug policy.

There are a number of considerations, some of which remain quite confidential, and I only mean that from a policing perspective. We employ all sorts of techniques, including covert ones, that we simply wouldn't talk about in a public setting.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that.

My question is to Deputy Commissioner McDonald.

Has the inability to seize less than 2.5 grams of fentanyl, or any substance, under B.C.'s decriminalization, had a negative impact on your ability to get deadly fentanyl off the streets?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Thank you for your question.

The permitted exemption for personal possession presents some challenges for law enforcement when we're conducting investigations in terms of starting at the grassroots level and leading up to those who are trafficking. We have modified our investigative techniques. We've conducted a significant amount of training. It took a while for law enforcement to adapt our approach and principles, but we haven't seen a decrease in trafficking investigations or trafficking charges in British Columbia as a result.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Do you think decriminalization has been successful in B.C. so far?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I'm sorry. The first part of your question cut out. Could you please repeat it?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Do you think decriminalization has been successful in B.C. so far?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I think aspects of decriminalization have been successful. In terms of the stigma attached to people who previously may have been arrested for personal possession and may have been diverted into the criminal justice system, I think we've seen positive impacts there. I think we still have a long way to go, as you've heard all the police leaders say, on aspects of public consumption. We're encouraged by the Province of British Columbia's attempt to amend the legislation and we're hoping for success in that matter.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I would like to move a motion:

That, given that a leaked memo from British Columbia health network states:

“Staff are not to search or seize patients' drugs or weapons with blades less than four inches long or restrict visitors who bring them drugs for personal use;

This applies to anyone in possession of 2.5 grams or less of fentanyl, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine or MDMA”;

and that, given the ongoing situation at Victoria General Hospital in British Columbia, where illicit drugs are regularly consumed by patients at Victoria General Hospital, exposing patients, including pregnant women at the maternity ward and health care workers, to the risks of inhaling toxic substances, coming into contact with illicit powders, and facing harm from intoxicated patients, and that this is the result of dangerous drug decriminalization policies,

the committee report its support of the victims of this situation, including nurses and pregnant women, and its condemnation of policies that allow for dangerous drug use in hospitals, and that the committee call the following witnesses: the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions and Associate Minister of Health and Health Canada officials for no less than two hours; Victoria Police Department representatives; and British Columbia Nurses' Union representatives.

Mr. Chair, I think that through the last bit of testimony we've had here, it has become increasingly clear that there are some very serious issues when it comes to decriminalization, and we are seeing major impacts. We've even heard from Vancouver police specifically that there are exceptions to the exemption and that this has not been put into play in a way that is preserving public safety.

Therefore, I think it is absolutely incumbent on us as the health committee to study and to look into the direct implications that it's having in our hospitals. In reading some of these stories and some of the horrific pieces that we've had to see, I can't imagine nursing moms being told by their nurses that perhaps they don't want to breastfeed their children because there are concerns regarding the drug use in hospitals, and the drug use is so open that people are wearing gas masks.

I just share this. I hope that we can approve this motion and get back to the witnesses.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mrs. Goodridge.

The motion is in order. It's clearly on the topic that is being discussed as part of the study. In fact, there was reference to it already today.

The debate is on the motion.

I recognize Dr. Hanley.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, I just want to briefly say that obviously this attests to a problem that indeed exists. However, I want to maximize our time for hearing from our witnesses, which is why we're here today. I also have concerns about the scope of the motion as it relates to provincial jurisdiction.

In that spirit, I would like to ask you to adjourn debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The motion to adjourn debate is a dilatory motion that is not debatable. We must go straight to a vote.

(Motion agreed to)

The debate is therefore adjourned.

You have 37 seconds remaining on the clock, Mrs. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My next question is this: Deputy Commissioner McDonald, do you think that the decriminalization pilot project should continue for the next two years?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Thanks for the question.

Decriminalization is scheduled to continue for the next two years. I would like to see, as I'm sure my police colleagues would like to see, more exemptions with respect to public consumption so that we can deal with those critical issues.

I think if we can get those exemptions in place, then we have a better chance of seeing the true impact of decriminalization in helping those who are struggling with addiction and diverting them away from the criminal justice path into a health path.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. McDonald.

Next we're going to go to Ms. Sidhu, please, for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here.

My question goes to Ms. Wilson.

You said we need a multi-level approach to deal with the opioid crisis. We know that the realities in B.C. are different from those in Ontario—I'm from Ontario—and that many communities across the country are impacted. We also know that it's important to respect the jurisdiction of our provinces and territories and work together with them.

That said, is there anything you would like to see in terms of our work with the provinces and territories to fight organized crime, which is responsible for this deadly supply that is killing Canadians?

Ms. Wilson, can you answer that?

[Fiona Wilson]

I certainly think if it's the case that British Columbia does not successfully have a public consumption act or if we're not able to bring it into force, the other option of course is to add additional exceptions to the Health Canada exemption.

We are hoping that the province will exhaust the possibility of bringing the public consumption act into force, because, quite frankly, it's less intrusive when it comes to people who are using drugs. As I said earlier, there's a requirement that the police simply ask people to leave, and they leave whole. There's no ticket, and they leave with their drugs, but they do have to move on. It's the refusal to do so that would become a problem. Exceptions in the exemption mean that the exemption does not apply in those particular places, so we would revert to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, which is criminalization.

If there was an advocacy piece, in the absence of that provincial legislation being successfully brought in, I would hope that we would have support to work with Health Canada to add additional exceptions to the exemption.