Health Committee on May 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Eagan.

Thank you, Mrs. Roberts.

Next up, we'll have Dr. Hanley for five minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thanks very much for everyone's testimony and for the range of expertise and expert opinion we have today. It's really welcome.

I've heard some, maybe, disparaging comments on the dental program. I just want to point out, on that note, that 100,000 Canadians have been served so far by the Canadian dental program, many for the first time. To me, this is a model of success, early success, of a great program. I think there are some things we can emulate with the proposed Bill C-64.

Mr. VanGorder, I want to go back to you. Thanks for appearing. I'm mesmerized by your backdrop, I must say. You wrote an editorial about pharmacare, and you talked about the successful collaboration between the federal government and P.E.I. in 2021. I wonder if you want to just comment briefly on that, on how that was a successful federal-provincial collaboration.

[Bill VanGorder]

We think the agreement between the federal government and the provincial government in P.E.I. is a model that many other provinces could emulate, taking the money that is available, examining exactly where the gaps are and the needs of coverage, and then applying the money specifically to those areas rather than trying to spread the money like a burlap sack over the entire issue. It is a particularly focused and effective way of using the money. We think that, in the long run, it will prove very effective, especially for the seniors in that province.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Ms. Eagan, I was intrigued by your comment in your opening remarks about updating the Canada Health Act. Then you mentioned the importance of, for instance, coverage for outpatient cancer therapies. We know how big of an issue that is. Have you done any analysis on what it would actually take to update it? Can you tell me a bit more about what your vision is?

I know that's outside of the scope of Bill C-64, but I am intrigued.

[Carolyne Eagan]

Definitely, I would agree to rewriting the Canada Health Act, but it would be quite a task.

What I can tell you is that what we see—

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, when my colleague was doing her presentation and making a comment about Ontario and what transpired, a member from across the floor, Mr. Naqvi, basically called my colleague “stupid”. I would ask that this be stricken and that he apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Naqvi, do you care to respond?

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would never call any member of this House or any individual by that term. I did not call the member that at all. If she feels that this was the case, I apologize. That was not my intention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Please continue, Ms. Eagan.

[Carolyne Eagan]

I think that this is an important part that we need to examine.

A brief example—again, a boots-on-the-ground example, I would say—is that we had a recent patient who was in the hospital for chemotherapy. They were prescribed a pill. Their prescription went outside of the hospital to be filled and came back in the hospital to be administered. Now what do we have? We have a $10,000 monthly bill where, according to the Canada Health Act, it was prescribed. The hospital went out to fill it, and now you have the public system and the employer system confused as to who should be responsible to pay.

The bottom line is that a therapy like this that is high cost is allowing this person to leave that hospital and be productive at work and healthy long term. This pipeline of drugs that is coming and available to Canada.... We want to make sure that we can work together to cost-effectively build a national strategy for high-cost and rare diseases.

Thank you for the question.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I'm assuming I have preserved some time from that point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You have 40 seconds.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I will quickly go to you, Mr. Williams.

You have a very interesting background from your experience with Innovation Canada, with Research Canada and with a political career.

I don't have time to go over the preamble but, in this bill, we talk about supporting modernization of the health care system with drug data and improving coordination. We talk about the national strategy for rare diseases.

Is there room for improving collaboration and innovation within the context of Bill C-64? Do you see that there is potential there?

[Russell Williams]

There has to be. We have to find the room to make sure that we continue to encourage innovation, research and development. As we're trying to make sure that, on one hand, we respond to the uninsured and the under-insured, on the other hand, we want to make sure that we continue to develop new treatments and new technologies that improve care. One of the challenges of what you're trying to do is that it's a balance that we're trying to work on.

One thing that I think we're trying to say is that we would like to be able to help people get answers to your questions so that we understand how we're going to do it, and I would encourage that we do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

We're almost at the hour, but not quite. We're going to shorten the last two rounds of questions, and then we'll thank and dismiss the panel. The next two rounds will be three minutes.

Dr. Ellis is next.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Before we finish, Mr. Morin, I'd just like to ask a question. Are you still a practising pharmacist?

[Benoit Morin]

Yes, I am a pharmacist. I am practising. I practised yesterday. I own a pharmacy in Montreal.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

Do you hear patients? Has the issue around the cost of prescriptions become worse in the last several years, with people not being able to afford their medications?

[Benoit Morin]

I've been practising for 30 years.

I'm going to switch to French. It's going to be easier for me.

I don't think so.

Quebec's public pharmacare plan was initially free of charge. The deductible and copayment were introduced later, but that was a challenge at one point.

I often see social problems in my practice. I see that some people don't join the plan because they're unable to do so. People need help navigating the system. There are a lot more social needs than financial problems.

I believe we need innovative solutions to help people in difficulty. They're out there, and I think it can be done through social services.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Mr. Williams, you talked a bit about meeting with the minister. It's interesting that these lists exist. Did you have any conversation with the minister? It appears that they have no bearing on reality, so why did the government create them? Did that come up in your conversation?

[Russell Williams]

Rather, we chose to offer what we thought was a good list, and that's why the document that you all have in terms of the comparison of our clinical practice guidelines as well as the NIHB program—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm going to interrupt you. I have only a couple of seconds.

Did you talk about the list or not?

[Russell Williams]

Yes, so—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

But you didn't ask why they created the list if it has no bearing in reality.

[Russell Williams]

What we said was that it was not adequate compared to our clinical practice guidelines.