Evidence of meeting #120 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was perrin.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
I would just say please look at this with fresh eyes. This is not an ideological issue. We need to follow the the best available evidence to depoliticize the issue.
Why are you in government if it's not for the benefit of Canadians? This has to be about saving lives, not about following the polls or anything else.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Perrin, you don't have a medical degree. Is that correct?
5:25 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
I already answered your question about that. Of course not. I'm a law professor, so no.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
No. I'm a law professor.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
I interviewed those people for my research, though.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
You talked about having Canadians who have lived experience appear before our committee on this. I couldn't agree with you more. I think we'd get much more benefit from that than having a pissed off ex-staffer basically defame his ex-party and potential leader, the next prime minister of Canada, at every intervention.
Dr. Nosyk, I really, truly appreciate the testimony you have given us over the last little bit. You've offered a lot of insight, as have many of our witnesses throughout this study. It's quite frustrating when you have somebody who comes on and it's very clearly a very partisan attack, when I think for the most part, we're having these discussions at committee, we have all really tried to do our very best to understand this. It is a very complex issue.
Mr. Perrin, you mentioned in previous remarks that the Conservatives, including our leader, have been spreading lies and misinformation, including that safe supply is what's killing everyone. No one is saying that.
What we are saying very clearly on record is that so-called safe supply is an unsafe and irresponsible policy and that it's making the crisis worse. We cannot—
5:30 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
Your leader said that. Your leader said safe supply is killing people.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Again, Mr. Perrin, it's my time and not yours.
The challenge we have is that we are perpetuating addiction without getting people either into detox or into treatment so that...recovery and we can bring people home. I know what I'm talking about, as I've shared very publicly the battle our family has had with my brother's addiction and other addictions within our family's life.
I noted that one of our colleagues had mentioned, or maybe it was in your testimony, that we haven't even bothered attending. Just because it's not public doesn't mean we haven't gone to these sites by ourselves. I don't do things just for social media likes and what have you. I go about doing my own business and visiting these sites on my own. Thank you very much.
Mr. Somers, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate the work you are in and what you're going through, long-term recovery. Recovery takes many steps.
I want to say again that if you feel there's more information that perhaps you have not had the chance to share with this committee or documents you feel we could benefit from, please mention them today and then send them to us, if at all possible.
Mr. Somers, do you have any further comments?
5:30 p.m.
Clinical Psychologist and Distinguished Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I'll add one. It's a growing reading list.
It's the U.K. commitment to a recovery-oriented system of care. A recovery-oriented system of care is the most frequently used framework that governments around the world are using in order to fully integrate all government activities toward a common goal of preventing addictions, as well as actually other mental illnesses, by intervening early and promoting recovery. It runs the gamut from interdiction and international relationships to domestic activities that cut across a broad swath.
We haven't yet mentioned the role of, for example, employment and the fact that 60% of the people who are experiencing poisoning in Canada were unemployed and they're mostly young people. Employment is powerfully related as a protection against the risk of addiction and also as a component of promoting recovery.
A related observation is that not only are poisoning deaths the leading cause of death among youth in B.C., but about 60% of the kids we're losing were in government care. What I'm trying to get at is that this is a very skewed high-risk population.
I am not spreading false, misleading and unethical testimony. I resent the remark. I don't even know why someone would think to say that in this setting.
We have actionable steps that we must take that involve our psychology and our social interactions. I'm summarizing that with the phrase “social reintegration”. We ignore social reintegration at our peril and now are piling on with additional pharmaceuticals that are making things net worse.
I'll gladly forward those documents.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Dr. Somers.
We'll go to Dr. Hanley, please, for five minutes.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Clinical Psychologist and Distinguished Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I'm a clinical psychologist. I don't have a medical degree.
5:30 p.m.
Clinical Psychologist and Distinguished Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
No, fortunately.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Okay. I just want to say I find it deeply disturbing, Dr. Somers, that you're making serious allegations based purely on speculation about public health officials in B.C. profiting from the overdose crisis—
5:30 p.m.
Clinical Psychologist and Distinguished Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I'm reporting facts that have been publicly reported. I'm reporting facts.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
—when those same people have literally dedicated their lives to some of our most vulnerable and voiceless citizens.
I know why Dr. Perry Kendall and Dr. Schechter started Fair Price Pharma. It was an attempt to address a need that was not otherwise being addressed.
In addition, Dr. Kendall is one of Canada's great leaders in public health. I've been fortunate to be a former colleague of his. I'm sure he would be happy to come to committee to explain Fair Price Pharma.
I want to go back to you, Mr. Perrin.
Would you describe yourself as a pissed off partisan ex-staffer?
5:30 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
No.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
5:35 p.m.
Prof. Benjamin Perrin
Yes, I appreciate that.
My concern on this issue has grown out of the research that I've done the last several years. I spent most of that time, particularly in my last project, talking to people whose lives have been devastatingly impacted by the criminal justice system, by addictions and by substance use. All of us have people in our own lives who have experienced this.
When I wrote this book, Overdose, I didn't know anyone who had passed away from unregulated drugs, but now I do. The reason for the very grave concern I have and the strong comments I've made today is that I see a lack of adequate response, and it is killing people. That is what motivates me. I will continue to speak truth on that, and I'm going to continue to call it out. I'll call it out whatever the political party is.
If I'm pissed off, that's the only part.... I guess I am pissed off; I am. I think if any of us were not.... If we continue to see people dying in the numbers they are and we really care about that, that should enrage us, but it has to motivate us to action.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Excuse me, Professor Perrin.
Are you raising a point of order, Mr. Thériault?
5:35 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt the witness because it is very interesting. I just wanted to remind you that you owe me at least 30 seconds of speaking time.