Evidence of meeting #13 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was care.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylas Coletto  Registered Nurse, As an Individual
Brenda Payne  Experienced Nurse, Educator, Senior Executive and Consultant (Rural and Urban), As an Individual
Martin Champagne  President and Hemato-Oncologist , Association des médecins hématologues et oncologues du Québec
Giovanna Boniface  President and Registered Occupational Therapist, Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists
Hélène Sabourin  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists
Cynthia Baker  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing
Bradley Campbell  President, Corpus Sanchez International Consultancy Inc.

4:10 p.m.

Bradley Campbell President, Corpus Sanchez International Consultancy Inc.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairperson, committee members and distinguished guests.

It is my distinct pleasure to be here today to present on this critical issue of health human resources and the specific work that this committee is undertaking relative to Standing Order 108(2), which asked the committee to undertake a study on how the federal government can facilitate the recruitment and retention of physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners and other health care providers to the public health care system, including a focus on northern and rural communities.

This is an incredibly important docket. It's also not a new topic. The call for comprehensive strategies to address the need for sustainable supply of health human resources has been the subject of numerous commission and expert panels at the federal level for decades, including the Lalonde report in 1974, continuing with the Romanow and Kirby reports in 2002, and additional work launched with Health Canada in 2005 to pursue strategies in four key areas: one, the supply of health care providers; two, effective use of skills; three, creating healthy, supportive and learning workplaces; and four, more effective planning and forecasting.

I believe all of our witnesses have touched on some of these points here today.

Pursuing these goals creates an ideal intersection of federal, provincial and territorial mandates in a number of ways.

First, past federal governments, regardless of the party in power, have sought to address barriers to recruitment of internationally trained professionals, often with initiatives aimed at supporting streamlined immigration and/or work visas.

I've had the privilege of being involved in planning tables, both here and abroad, and have often heard concerns raised about the ethics of recruiting internationally. The primary concern here is that we as Canadians should not be aggressively pursuing strategies in other countries simply to meet our own needs for health professionals at the expense of system sustainability in other countries. It is clear that we need to be conscious of that concern.

At the same time, there are several countries that deliberately train more people than they need as a way to help their citizens pursue careers internationally so that they in turn can send money home to support members of extended families. In these circumstances, global recruitment can help all parties achieve their goals.

Second, many provinces have already led work at the provincial level to retain health care professionals in the workforce by developing integrated solutions to enable truly inter-professional care teams.

I've personally had the opportunity to work with the governments of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island in those pursuits and can attest to the fact that provincial-enabled solutions help to get past barriers grounded in individual organizational silos and cultures.

The federal government can help coordinate these efforts on a national level, partnering with provinces and territories to understand local needs while driving toward a comprehensive pan-Canadian health human resources strategy. This does not mean that all solutions will be applicable in all areas, but consistency of purpose can enable local solutions to be created within an overarching context.

Earlier today, when we heard from the witness from CAOT, we heard about how different solutions exist in different settings, including those in the community, which are very different from those that happen in hospitals.

In the end, all solutions must enable the unique needs of the population being served to be met. This will be particularly true in designing solutions for northern or remote communities, which don't always have the same access to services that are routinely available in more urban settings.

Third, I believe the federal government has a unique opportunity to partner with indigenous communities to develop solutions that work for them.

In my career, I've had the privilege to work with some indigenous communities to assist with the creation of indigenous-led pathways and models that enable access to education and care when, where, and how they want to receive it. This includes supporting the training of indigenous people in a variety of health care professions but also assisting non-indigenous providers to better connect with and partner with indigenous communities generally, and indigenous patients and their families specifically, to support solutions, once again, that are defined by them, for them. What is learned through this essential work will help to define solutions for all people who live in northern and remote communities.

In conclusion, I think it's clear that we're in a difficult time. From a health service delivery perspective, it is well known that older citizens tend to have the highest usage of health care services. Given that the first baby boomer turns 76 this year, the need to respond to the needs of the baby boomer generation and the generation that preceded them, my parents' generation, is becoming more and more essential on a daily basis. These generations define the society we live in today, as well as the generations that follow them. They, as well as the generations following them, deserve nothing less than our collective best as we move forward with this critical work to create a sustainable health human resources supply.

When we think of the health care provider workforce, many of them are tired, burned out, frustrated and, as we heard earlier today, suffering on a daily basis—or a regular and consistent basis—abuse at the hands of the patients they are trying to serve.

The pace at which they are leaving the workforce is, simply, rapidly increasing at a level that we cannot sustain. The pandemic served to exacerbate the situation, but it did not create it. The trend has been shifting in this direction for years. We need to engage providers in the creation of new solutions. We also need to understand that as new professionals enter this workforce, both those trained here at home and those recruited from abroad, they need to be supported to thrive in the environments they will be working in.

My final comment is an ask of the people represented at this committee: We need multi-party participation and agreement to move forward in a unified manner. We simply cannot afford for health human resources strategies to become the next political football. We must work together on this.

Thank you very much.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you very much, Mr. Campbell.

Before we go to the rounds of questions, Ms. Baker, we're going to give it one more try.

The problem with the sound from your mike is that it makes it hard for the translators. I think the mike is too close to your mouth. Can you move it up?

Try it now.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

Okay.

Is that better?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay. We're going to leave it there.

We'll begin rounds of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

Dr. Ellis, you have six minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their thoughtful statements and for appearing here today.

I'll start my questioning with Ms. Payne.

I understand that you have had some experience with studies that we have done in the past. One of the main questions I would ask is this: What do you see as the role of the federal government in the health human resources strategy?

4:15 p.m.

Experienced Nurse, Educator, Senior Executive and Consultant (Rural and Urban), As an Individual

Brenda Payne

Thank you for the question, Dr. Ellis.

My response would be that it is a facilitating role. The federal government has both the experience and the foundational documents on which to proceed with a pan-Canadian approach very quickly. Their role would be to bring the right people to the table, acknowledging that the work that has been done previously, going up to roughly 2011, would require some updating in terms of both whom we're recruiting and how we make our workplaces appropriate to recruit. They are not the same as the baby boomers or my experience in working in the health system.

I believe the federal government is positioned to move forward quickly on a pan-Canadian approach as they've done with the data piece.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Following up on that, given that it takes a minimum of four to six years to create a nurse, and longer to create a physician, how are we actually going to get to that appropriate spot? The situation is critical. We have a patient who is bleeding heavily, and we don't even have any—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I'm sorry to interrupt, Dr. Ellis. I've just been advised that the bells are ringing in the chamber. In order for us to continue, we need the unanimous consent of the committee.

Is it a 15-minute bell?

4:20 p.m.

Majid Jowhari

I don't know. I'm trying to figure out where it's coming from.

There are no bells. My apologies.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Doctor Ellis, I'm sorry for the interruption. I'll add your time back.

Go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wonder if Mr. Jowhari heard the tinkling of glasses, perhaps, but I digress.

You ruined my wonderful metaphor of a bleeding patient who needs surgery but has pressure on a wound. I guess we're in a critical situation.

How can we get this done quickly or expeditiously?

4:20 p.m.

Experienced Nurse, Educator, Senior Executive and Consultant (Rural and Urban), As an Individual

Brenda Payne

Is the question still directed to me?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Yes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Experienced Nurse, Educator, Senior Executive and Consultant (Rural and Urban), As an Individual

Brenda Payne

As we speak, Dr. Ellis, provinces and organizations are dealing with just that issue. They're dealing with it in very creative ways by creating new positions and redistributing roles. My point is that we need to do it in tandem, not as a barrier or adding another bureaucratic level. We need to bring people together to the table very quickly in order to look at some short-term interim strategies, like recruiting internationally.

My experience would say that, not unlike other issues in health care, if we only focus on that, the biggest issue before us is the one that gets our attention. We need to explore what potential solutions there are, but we need to do it in tandem with the provinces and territories.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you, Ms. Payne. I appreciate that.

Ms. Boniface, with respect to the role of occupational therapists in rural health care, do you see occupational therapists working independently or only in teams?

4:20 p.m.

President and Registered Occupational Therapist, Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists

Giovanna Boniface

I guess it will depend on the scenario in each of the jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions, occupational therapists are primarily in the public sector, but because of the way the systems are set up and because they're so different across the country, you have services also being provided outside of that system. They're being funded, say, by a Crown corporation. I'll use the example in British Columbia, where you have auto insurance funding or workers' compensation funding, even veterans affairs, which is national. There are some that will be working independently in those regions just by nature of the system being structured that way, because it's not all in one place.

Where you see those interprofessional care teams is in the public system and primarily in community care teams, so there is absolutely a role for them there. We know there are some of those happening in spurts across the country, but it is not consistent. It is absolutely not consistent in that approach, and it really depends on.... What we hear is that it's happening very regionally and it's dependent on what decisions are made in those communities.

There is a role. As I mentioned earlier, we would like to see all Canadians have access to occupational therapy. If you're in a car accident or you're injured at work or whatever the scenario is, you have access when you need it at the right time and you do not have to figure out where on earth it's going to come from. In some scenarios, there isn't any. If you're not in the system in that way, for some people, it's not even an option to have access to therapy.

We really want to see that change and be part of primary...other important professionals, alongside physicians, nurses and other allied health professionals, that they are all part of a team.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much for that, Ms. Boniface.

Ms. Baker, you talked about the critical role of clinical supervision and the lack of current availability. How do you suppose we might fix that?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

The clinical placement situation is a big barrier. One of the ways is, following the graduation, to have residency programs for nurses. I think this is a very important step forward, but during the program itself, there needs to be collaboration between education and service to come up with innovative strategies to offer clinical placements.

The other solution, I think, is to increase the use—and we are increasing it—of simulation in programs: virtual simulation and high-fidelity simulation.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Ms. Baker, do you believe you have a good handle on how many clinical supervisory positions would be available around the country, or is that something we need to have a closer look at?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

I don't have data on how many are available, but I do have data on how many were employed last year as clinical instructors, and the year before, and the year before that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I guess my question would be whether you think that it's good data. For instance, in my neck of the woods in northern Nova Scotia, there would be two hospitals, in Springhill and Amherst, that could accept clinical nurses needing supervision, but they're not really captured because of their geographic location.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Give a short answer if you can, please.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

I'm not sure I understand your question. The number of clinical instructors.... The clinical instructors are hired by the schools of nursing. They may be borrowed from a hospital or a health care institution, but they are hired by the education program itself.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

That's fine.

I'll come back to it, Mr. Chair. Thanks.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you.

Next is Mr. van Koeverden for six minutes.