Evidence of meeting #132 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you for that response.
Mr. Thériault asked you about nicotine-based products. You've obviously heard the concerns that have been raised with this committee and more broadly about nicotine-based products. You have said that this bill has been given to the committee to work on. We acknowledge that you're saying you'd prefer no amendments, but you understand why we might be considering amendments of that nature.
October 10th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I'm sure there will be some people who come forward and propose that this is the place to do it. However, what happens, Mr. Julian, if we make amendments now to make a carve-out for something like nicotine pouches—I don't want to get into the pros and cons of nicotine pouches—is we set an entrenchment of the changes that have been made in Bill C-47 into law.
I think what we really should do is just pass the bill, go back to the drawing board, have a conversation with the industry and let the industry decide which way it wants to go at the fork in the road—or at least have a say in the matter.
As you said, I don't speak.... You'll have them as witnesses. The industry will come and tell you. I don't think they're going to defend nicotine pouches per se. My recommendation would be to go back to the drawing board by passing the bill and then going in a direction where the natural health products that are used for the health and well-being of Canadians can be separated from nicotine products.
Liberal
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Thank you to my colleague for bringing this bill forward.
Prior to Bill C-47, were there mechanisms in place to deal with the bad actors in the industry?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Yes, of course. As I said in response to a question from Mr. Hanley, Health Canada....
As a matter of fact, if you take a look at the Auditor General's report, they basically said that Health Canada isn't using the powers it already has, so the response from Health Canada is that if it's not using the powers it already has, it needs more powers. That's not a reasonable response. It needs to use the powers it already has.
Health Canada has the ability to stop a sale. They can immediately go to the retailers, the distributors and the manufacturers and say, “Stop the sale.”
They have powers at the border for personal use imports. They have the ability to seize products anywhere along the supply chain. They can revoke a site licence for a manufacturer. They can revoke a site licence for anybody involved in packaging and labelling. They can revoke a site licence for an importer. They can mandate a label change any time they want. They can add warnings and clarification, for example. They have the ability to inspect anybody who has a site licence any time they want. They can do an inspection on any product. They can go to the store, buy the products they want and send them to the lab. They can do any of these things.
They are responsible for approving natural product numbers. They've created the entire mechanism that is in place to do that. They can revoke a natural product number if somebody's out of line. They have the ability to issue recall notices. I believe the recalls are voluntary at this particular point, but ask the industry. I don't know of anybody who has not actually complied with a voluntary recall.
I don't know what problem we're trying to fix here, and I think Health Canada has a different, ulterior motive on this. They're just using nicotine pouches as an opportunity to justify the massive cash grab and power grab that they want.
Mr. Doherty, when I walk into a natural product store, like an organic grocery store that sells organic foods and health foods, and natural health products are on those shelves, I'm not afraid of anything on that store's shelves, and I don't think any other Canadian is either. We should be encouraging consumer choice and allowing consumers to make the choices that are the best for them.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Thank you for that.
When Bill C-47 was before this committee, the chief medical adviser at Health Canada used the case of 19-month-old Ezekiel Stephan as a prime example of why Bill C-47 was needed.
Are you familiar with that case at all?
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Ezekiel Stephan was a young boy of 19 months old who fell ill. His parents treated their son with natural health products and—
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I'm not sure what exactly it was that they used.
When he died—ultimately Ezekiel died—
Conservative
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
It was garlic and hot peppers.
This young couple was charged in Lethbridge, Alberta, in the death of their son because they failed to do what was right. They used natural health products.
The reason I'm bringing this up is that the young boy did not die from the use of natural health products—he died because he had viral meningitis and he died from lack of oxygen—but the chief medical adviser stated this case as a prime example as to why Bill C-47 was so needed. Despite my multiple attempts to give her the opportunity—I was very familiar with this case—to correct the record, she refused to do so.
Mr. Calkins, why do you feel the chief medical adviser would have done that?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
First of all, it's a very tragic story. I think what you would find, Mr. Doherty—and I'll just speak in general terms here—is that when push comes to shove, Health Canada has been not very forthcoming with the actual data and facts that they should be publishing to make their case. The Deloitte audit is very clear about some of the deaths that Health Canada used and the audit has debunked most of the claims that Health Canada floats out there without actually providing what I would consider to be documented evidence to support their claims.
What the motives are of a particular individual, I'll leave to the discretion of everybody here, but as I said, I haven't seen anything from Health Canada that would convince me that Bill C-47 is justified.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Mr. Calkins.
We go now to Mr. Naqvi, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Welcome, Mr. Calkins.
Let me start by saying that I support natural health products. I've spoken to many constituents who expect that there are rules and regulations in place that ensure natural health products are safe, and that for the product they're buying, as for any other product they buy, whether it's food or other medications, there's a regulatory scheme in place that ensures Canadians with are safe with products.
My concern with this bill is that it undermines the safety of these products.
It is clear to me that if your bill were adopted, it would increase the risk of unsafe products remaining on the market. That would mean Canadians would be left in the dark without warning labels or the information available for them to make an informed decision on their health and the health of their families.
Let me give you an example. In September 2021, Health Canada found unsafe levels of methanol in a hand sanitizer. Methanol is poisonous to humans. Despite Health Canada's request for a recall, the company refused to comply and kept the product available for sale for months.
Do you think this is acceptable? How would the government ensure the safety of Canadians if your bill is to be adopted?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Mr. Naqvi, it was the Government of Canada that would have issued the licence for that product to be on the shelf in the first place. They could have simply ordered a “stop sale” of that product. That would have put anybody who sold that product immediately into non-compliance. That would have given Health Canada the powers they needed, and then the appropriate fines would have begun to be levied against that company. This is how I would presume that would happen.
The idea that the industry would somehow be unregulated without Bill C-47, which I think is the perception you're trying to leave with people who are watching this committee, is simply not the case at all. There is a very well-defined process that natural health product companies have to go through and schedules they have to follow, monographs they have to follow, in order to get a product to the market. Some 50,000 products that are currently on the market have natural product numbers, and, as I said, the industry is very well regulated.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Naqvi, as I said in my opening remarks, the international organization that watches all of these things said the pre-Bill C-47 laws and regulations we had in place made Canada the gold standard. We were attracting and drawing businesses from around the world to Canada in order to have Canada's regulatory reputation attached to their product so that they could distribute it not only within Canada but around the world.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Right now, Mr. Naqvi, states in the United States of America—
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
It's my time, so thank you for running the clock. I appreciate that you're a seasoned parliamentarian.
Here's a scenario: What your bill does is take away the power of recall from Health Canada. On one hand, the power exists for Health Canada to recall a spoiled head of lettuce, let's say, but it will not be able to recall, if your bill is passed into law, a health supplement that poses some serious detriments to health. How do you justify that discrepancy?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Well, you're comparing food to a hand sanitizer, as I've already said.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
No, I'm talking about any of the supplements and the natural health products too.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I have a point of order.
Mr. Naqvi asked the question. He should allow our guest the time to answer the question.
