Health Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Ellis, go ahead, please.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thanks, everybody, for being here. I have just a couple of comments.

First of all, Mr. Fallu talked about depoliticizing the situation. I would draw everybody's attention to a social media post in May that reads, “Hey everyone, @PierrePoilievre is a #PublicDanger. He is way more toxic for society than all drugs.” That doesn't sound like depoliticizing this incredibly important debate to me.

That being said, Ms. Krupp, thank you very much for your testimony. I had a chance to read it, and I really appreciate your being here. I apologize for not being able to be here right away.

We talked a little bit about methadone and, of course, the tragedy that happened in your family related to methadone. I once was a family physician and had a licence to prescribe methadone. At that time, it was necessary to prove your competence as a prescriber before you were allowed to prescribe methadone. In my reading, those regulations changed in 2017.

In your mind, if that regulation continued to exist, would that have changed the outcome in your family if you had a competent prescriber?

[Masha Krupp]

If those regulations were in place, I believe that, most certainly, my daughter would be alive because the physicians that were dispensing prior to 2017 had to be trained. Now they are not.

For example, Recovery Care has four clinics across Ottawa. Guess how many doctors have the certificate for addictions. One. It's Dr. Charles Breau. None of the other doctors at all the other locations, including the one that my daughter went to, has addictions training.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Those comments, of course, are very concerning. I think it's something that this committee needs to take into consideration as we draft recommendations around how things need to change in the future.

Dr. de Villa, I found it interesting. I had a chance to read some of the comments you've made.

On behalf of Canadians, am I right in saying that when you talk about legalization and some of the proposals you put forward, you didn't believe there would even be an age limit on the use of unregulated drugs in this country? Is that true?

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

Let's be clear. What I have put forward, and what we put forward at Toronto Public Health, is in respect of decriminalization and a nuanced discussion on how to create drug policy that actually better supports health. That has to be a part—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

That wasn't my question. My question was very specific: Does your policy include the fact that there would be no age limit?

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

Our decriminalization application did include young people, whom we recognize are actually also very much suffering from addiction—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm sorry, but again I'm going to interrupt you. You're giving us a word salad.

On behalf of Canadians, your legalization program did not have any age limit whatsoever.

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

Through the chair, it was a decriminalization application to the federal government and, yes, it considered young people, who are also suffering with challenges of substance use, in order to protect their health.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Dr. de Villa, I am going to interrupt you there, because you continue to say your same line over and over again. I understand why you're doing that. I assume it's because you're embarrassed to come out and say what the actual truth is.

On behalf of Canadians out there, of course, those of us on this side of the House do realize that young people suffer with opioid use disorder—of course we do—but in the policies we've read that you've put forward, you're talking about legalization, which you want to argue and call by a different name but also not admit the fact that it includes no age limit for young people.

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

Through the chair, it was an application to the federal government for decriminalization. Yes, it considered young people, because they are actually suffering and stigmatized related to their drug use and, as well, you'll note that our strategy in the City of Toronto does consider a very broad range of approaches.

We recognize that it is not a simple solution that will actually get us where we, I believe, want to get to, which is a healthier, thriving community.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Yes, I thank you for that, Dr. De Villa, but what I would suggest to you—

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

We actually need better drug policy. We need more more prevention. We need more harm reduction—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

What I—

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

—and we need more treatment.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Excuse me, Ma'am—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Ellis, go ahead with your last question.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Chair.

What we're seeing here is the fact of the matter that neither of Mrs. Krupp's children was born wanting to be addicted to drugs. Everybody over here realizes that, but I think, Dr. de Villa, that what you're failing to realize, and of course why your proposal was actually shot down by the province, is the fact that nobody in this country now believes that legalization of drugs and giving out drugs for free, especially to kids, is in any way, shape or form going to change the narrative of the chaos and drugs and disruption that policies such as yours are allowing to happen on the streets.

I guess the fact of the matter is—

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Ellis, that's your time.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

If may just finish up, Mr. Chair, I hope they're happy with tent cities that now exist—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We have a point of order from Ms. Brière.

Go ahead.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

I have a point of order.

We are not talking about legalization; we are talking about decriminalization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Brière.

Dr. Ellis, are you finished? Your time is up.

[Dr. Eileen de Villa]

Sorry—