Thanks very much, Chair.
Certainly, I think the difficulty that my colleagues are having is, again, a lack of understanding of the industry. As we begin to look at safety, I think it is important that people have an idea that in taking some of these medications—even if they were to take them in inappropriate dosages, although that's not the idea—much of the time they are not harmful to folks. Not having that data to enable us to see that and to take that data, parse it out, look at it closely and say that this is a really important event, and this is a recurrent event....
We did not hear that from our friends at Health Canada—that there were recurrent events with certain substances—because I would suggest to you that they already have that ability to recall. I think we heard here previously in testimony from the officials who were here that even when a particular manufacturing facility had some struggles, when they were given the appropriate guidance, they actually made the appropriate choices and changed the difficulties they were having.
We heard very inflammatory language from the minister in attempting to say that there were difficulties. To repeat his words exactly, there was a factory “full of [rat] feces and urine”. I don't know why my colleagues want to present these disparaging remarks, whether they be from Mr. Julian or Minister Holland, with respect to the natural health product industry. I don't know why they would. For me, that doesn't really make any sense.
I'll go back to looking at other minerals, such as calcium and magnesium. Certainly we know that magnesium is a very safe mineral as well. People are often deficient in magnesium and don't realize it. They have to take significant and repeated doses of magnesium to attempt to get their levels back to a physiologic amount. We know, though, that taking significant amounts of magnesium could cause loose bowel movements. Are loose bowel movements a side effect of magnesium? When we're attempting to give you significant amounts to boost your levels, that makes it very difficult, but again, we don't know that, because we don't know what the data is.
If we'd had that data beforehand, I might be more inclined to say that one or another of these amendments makes perfect sense, or doesn't. Are there known side effects? Again, if we had the ability to understand what the data said, then that would give us a much more informed discussion.
I think the other thing we heard about a lot in this committee was related to nicotine-containing products. I find it fascinating that this committee is now in a grave hurry without enough data to push this Bill C-368 forward. We also know that we also heard the exact contrary opinion with respect to nicotine-containing products. We heard from officials, who sat over there, that this NDP-Liberal government cannot enact legislation quickly enough to keep up with the changes in nicotine-containing products. We also know about the sloppiness in how nicotine pouches were delivered to this country, and about how Health Canada officials, in collusion with Minister of Health number one, were unable to actually prevent this product from coming to Canadian shores.
Then when we suggested that legislation should be drafted specifically to deal with Canadian nicotine products, we heard about the sloppy nature of health minister number two in trying to clean up the mess of health minister number one. They were unable to do that in a timely fashion to be able to keep up with the industry.
Now, as we begin to look at nicotine-containing products, the other difficulty is related to contraband cigarettes. These are obviously manufactured in a factory as well. That raises the question of why the CFIA is not out there inspecting those factories and getting contraband cigarettes out of the mouths and hands of Canadians.
I find it fascinating that we are required to fast-track Bill C-368 at the behest of Mr. Julian and that this is taking too much of his time when the NDP-Liberal coalition finds it impossible to create legislation with respect to nicotine-containing products.
What we do know, though, is that more youth are turning to vapes and flavoured vapes, which they are actually purchasing online and which are something that a future government—a future Conservative government—must actually tackle.
We also know that they do not have the ability to look at nicotine-containing products such as nicotine pouches and how that actually fits into the legislation. When we look at the nicotine-containing pouches, I find it distressing, because they were actually brought in under the natural health product regulation, which directly relates to their being a smoking cessation aid.
Now, I hope that all of my colleagues did their background research. I suspect that Dr. Powlowski and perhaps Dr. Hanley did, not to be disparaging to others. When you look at nicotine pouches as a smoking cessation aid, you see that the likelihood of having evidence to support them as a smoking cessation aid is almost zero. There have been no studies done. There's no ability to say how many milligrams of nicotine in a pouch or if x amount of nicotine in a vape product is equivalent to x number of cigarettes, and how long you would stay at a certain milligram level of nicotine and then move down to the next lower amount of nicotine. Those studies do not exist.
Sadly, on behalf of Canadians, that is exactly how minister number two, also known as Holland, decided to deal with nicotine pouches. It was to say that these are a smoking cessation aid and, with much fanfare, bombast and foolishness, he said that they must be sold only in pharmacies because they're a smoking cessation aid.
The problem with that, of course, is that there is absolutely no evidence to say that these are a smoking cessation aid, and there's no pathway forward for pharmacists to be able to prescribe or guide prospective patients to use nicotine pouches to stop smoking. If that doesn't exist and if these are only being sold in pharmacies, the difficulty then is that pharmacists have not developed the ability to identify and ID folks who may be underage and purchasing these products.
As we start to look at that, where does some of that expertise exist? Well, I find it absolutely fascinating that nicotine-containing pouches are sold—and again, I'm not meaning to be disparaging to my pharmacist colleagues—in an environment that does not have expertise in identifying folks but are not being sold in an environment also known as a “convenience store”, which does have the ability to ID folks. They have a long history there, and whether we all around this table like it or not, convenience stores are the places that do sell cigarettes and other tobacco-containing products.
In some instances, they also sell alcohol, which is precisely why I would suggest that when we look at regulations with respect to nicotine-containing products, convenience stores may be a very reasonable place to sell nicotine pouches, since the regulations that were brought forward by health minister number two are wholly untrue and inadequate to deal with nicotine-containing products such as pouches.
As we sit here in committee and say that we should push forward without the data that would make us a much better-informed committee on behalf of Canadians with respect to natural health products, I think it is a shame that those around this table from the NDP and the Liberals have allowed shade to be cast upon an incredible industry employing thousands of Canadians to the tune of $13 billion.
As we begin to look at that and understand the economic consequences, Joel Thuna was another great witness who was here and has been in this business. I believe, colleagues—correct me if I'm wrong—that he has been in the natural health product business for more than 50 years. He is also a proponent of teaching others how to grow natural health products. I can't remember exactly; perhaps they were herbs like oregano and other spices that some folks may believe help to maintain your health.
He also made it very clear that he is not just a proponent of the industry but is also a resource within the industry and will take on newcomers to the industry so that they understand what good manufacturing practices are and where to look inside Canada for growers who have the ability to produce substances that Canadians want to use that don't have contaminants in them. He presented a very collegial attitude that exists inside the natural health product industry. He has, of course, as I said, been in this country doing this business for 50 years, and I think that would certainly qualify him as an expert.
I would also go on to say that he made it clear that recommitting natural health products to therapeutic products would pose a difficulty to folks in this industry, in the sense that most of those businesses would be forced to move all of their business ventures to the United States.
As we start to look at the anti-business environment that the NDP-Liberal government has created, we also know that many business interests have already moved south of the border and that investment in Canadian industry has gone down, and that's creating a significant problem with respect to Canada's GDP. We also look at the unfortunate case of the Canadian dollar, which sits now at less than 70 cents. That creates a difficulty as well.
One of the other things I think would be important and is a question that I would have to ask....
Perhaps, Chair, I might pause for a second. Obviously, it's Thursday. There are folks who don't live here. If there are folks who have flights and they would like to consider an adjournment, I would be okay with that, but if not, I would be quite happy to continue.
I'm trying to be collegial. If you would allow me not to cede the floor but to simply ask that question, I'd be quite happy to do that, sir.