Health Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Answer briefly.

[Dr. Peter German]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I am not receiving any interpretation and hesitate to answer without that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay. Dr. German, on the bottom of your screen, you may see three dots. Try that. It gives you the options of English, French of the floor.

Does that work?

[Dr. Peter German]

Yes. I have it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Turn that to “English” and we'll have Mr. Thériault repeat his question. Then, can you provide a brief answer?

Mr. Thériault, I'll let you ask your last question again.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was saying that, during our meetings dedicated to this study, I've often pointed out that law enforcement constituted the least effective component of the national strategy. Your comments today support this view.

In turn, while more must be done, a number of witnesses said that it was wishful thinking to believe that organized drug crime could be dealt with simply by strengthening law enforcement.

What do you think?

[Dr. Peter German]

Thank you for the question.

Thank you for the interpretation.

I know that a lot of people say, “The war on drugs is a failure”, and so on, but what would you rather have? Would you like organized crime to make its home here in Canada? We already have enough organized crime groups here.

There has to be an enforcement component that goes along with treatment and prevention. If you choose not to have an enforcement component and allow organized crime to do what it wants in your country, then you have something called “state capture”. You won't have a country. There are many examples of that in other parts of the world, where organized crime essentially runs the country. That's not an option, from my perspective. We have to deal with it.

We also have to deal with treatment. We also have to deal with prevention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. German.

Next is Mr. Johns, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Again, Ms. Welz, you have my sincere condolences for the loss of your daughter. I want to thank you so much for your advocacy.

Can you talk about how we can discourage youth from using substances, while also reducing the stigma that keeps some youth from seeking support? Also, how can we provide harm reduction services to at-risk youth?

[Angela Welz]

That's a difficult one to answer, but I'll do my best, given my situation.

With what happened to Zoe, it happened to us so quickly. I'm always careful to lay blame on the family unit or parental situation. We were an amazing family and didn't have any issues at all with any of our children. I think what happened to Zoe was unexpected, because of the trauma she experienced with loss and the idea that her dad was going to pass.

There has to be more support for youth. There have to be areas where youth can go and feel comfortable being around other youth. The situation right now is so complicated because of social media, peers and the availability of drugs.

I understand that we may need to use enforcement to protect the ports and prevent bringing those illegal substances in, but that's not going to stop the deaths, unfortunately. We need to tackle the supply that is out on the streets right now. We know that if we take some of those drugs off the street, it's just going to make the drugs that are there and available more toxic, because you're essentially taking that supply away. It's a supply and demand thing.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Can you speak a bit more about what supports you wish had been available for Zoe—and not just for Zoe, but for you?

[Angela Welz]

There was no support for us with Zoe. In 2015, there was AADAC, which is no longer part of Alberta Health Services. There were some services at AADAC that she could access, but again, it was not something she was able to access on a regular basis.

For family support, it was impossible. There was nothing for me to look at, other than the PChAD model.

With Moms Stop the Harm, we now have two support groups that help people. We have “Holding Hope”, which is for those who are supporting a loved one through their substance use or recovery, and we have the “Healing Hearts” component, which, unfortunately, is for those who have lost a loved one.

I think those are really the only options we have for people who experience substance use—for families, anyway.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Welz.

Next, we'll go to Mr. Doherty, please, for five minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests.

Ms. Welz, I truly appreciate your heartfelt testimony. My thoughts are with you.

I don't know whether you'll have the answer to this question. I don't have the answer for what could save my brother.

The question I would ask you is, what would have saved your daughter?

[Angela Welz]

Not a poisoned drug supply. I think if she had wanted to use substances, we could have supported her, as long as we knew those substances weren't going to kill her.

I'm a huge advocate for a regulated drug supply.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. German, I have a question for you.

I worked for a long time in aviation. I spent 25 years in aviation. I was what was known as a security specialist. There were some major events that took place in the 1990s and 2000s that I feel precipitated some of the mess we're dealing with right now. We were going down a coordinated effort with our U.S. counterparts, which I know you're probably very well aware of, on perimeter security. I did a lot of work on that, as I think you did as well.

I'm wondering if you think that had we gone down that path—perhaps it's not too late to go down it—we would be in the boat we're in right now with fentanyl and the opioid crisis.

[Dr. Peter German]

Thank you for the question.

To a certain extent, it's hypothetical. Looking backward yet forward, I think the reality is that, yes, we should be working with our American friends.

In terms of law enforcement, Canadian law enforcement works very well with its U.S. partners. It always has. It doesn't matter which agency it is. We have that ability, and I think that should be encouraged. Probably, what we're really saying is that any national strategy in Canada should definitely be one that meshes well with the United States, because North America is really one security zone, and we saw that with 9/11.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you for that.

That's exactly the answer that I was looking for. We are one security system.

Immediately after 9/11, you know as I know who was in control of the airspace. Canadians were, because we work very closely with our U.S. counterparts. There are some tenets to border security—inter-service, inter-agency, international co-operation, and intelligence, obviously. We are dealing with the intermodality of shipments of drugs in a porous border system. What can we do to stop the flow of this now?

[Dr. Peter German]

We have to look at each of the components that we've already talked about, whether it's rail, ports, air, walking across the border—you name it. That's where a strategy comes in. On some we're doing better than on others. I mentioned airplanes. We all get checked very thoroughly before we get into that cabin. Maybe cargo could be strengthened. I don't know. It seems to me that something like the ports, as well as the 49th parallel, just jumps out at us.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Also, in your testimony, you focused on something that was quite disturbing for those of us in aviation. After 9/11, there were secure checks on our ramp personnel, and we found out that less than 2% of our ramp personnel, those who are accessing our aircraft, actually had red passes. How many were actually in the system for three to five years and unable to get security clearances? Now we're seeing the same in our port systems as well. Do you care to comment on that?

[Dr. Peter German]

It's my understanding that after 9/11, the United States required that all people working in the ports have a minimal security clearance. I believe it's called a TWIC in my ports report. We didn't go that far in Canada. At this point, I mean, it's probably impossible for us to all of a sudden require a security clearance of, let's say, 30,000 people here, but we can start by grandfathering in any new person coming into a port.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

To that comment, is Canada seen as the weak link in the system because of our lacks and some of the things? Mind you, we do do some things better, but we have fallen down in our obligation in certain areas. Is that correct?

[Dr. Peter German]

I think our people are doing the best they can with the tools they have and with the various restrictions they have. I think Mr. Trump's comment, for what it's worth, probably says it all. Whether it is a reality or a perception, we have to deal with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. German.

Thank you, Mr. Doherty.

Next is Ms. Sidhu, please, for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony.

Ms. Welz, my condolences for your daughter's loss. Thank you for your incredible strength and dedication to this cause, especially given the immense personal loss you have endured. Your work through Moms Stop The Harm is an inspiration for many. Your organization focuses on advocating for the decriminalization of people who use drugs. Can you speak to how this policy shift could help prevent further tragic loss?

I was listening to Dr. Caudarella. He said that more youth between the ages of 13 and 15 are using substances, and that 90%.... Can you talk about what urgent measures we can implement to prevent further tragic loss?