Health Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

The first thing is that we've tripled investments in first nations communities and are taking historic action in first nations communities. Those are way over the levels that were there under the Conservatives. I can tell you that the number of boil water advisories in those communities and poor health outcomes were much worse under Conservatives and would be again with the cuts that you would visit upon them.

In terms of the country writ large, things like the school food program, things like making sure that women have access—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

So you've done nothing to help people.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—to child care and that they can afford child care, and making sure that people get the savings that come from dental care and pharmacare. That's real help. Making cuts isn't going to help any of those people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

The last round of questions for you will come from Mr. Naqvi for five minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome, Minister, and our officials as well. We shall be speaking with you soon.

I want to start on the theme of research. I think Dr. Hanley was talking about research.

I know, in my role as your Parliamentary secretary, that I've had the chance to meet with some incredible stakeholder groups that have have been advocating that we invest more in research funding. Budget 2024 really delivered in that respect.

In particular, I want to talk about brain research. In the supplements, there's $10 million in funding for the Canadian brain research fund to advance knowledge on the brain, brain diseases and brain disorders and to accelerate discoveries for improving the health and quality of life of Canadians affected by brain disease.

In your view, why is this funding into this research area critical?

Before you answer, I also want to put on record that our colleague Alistair MacGregor, who brought in Bill C-277, sought unanimous consent in the House so that it could pass, but it was denied UC by the Conservatives, which was rather partisan, because we heard clearly from so many witnesses about the need for a brain research framework in Canada, which we're looking forward to working with once it passes into law.

While we're moving ahead with this research funding, why is it so critical to support brain research in Canada and globally?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Naqvi. I think that you're absolutely right: It was unfortunate that it was voted against.

The support for brain research is absolutely critical for a wide array of neurological conditions. When you meet patients, one of the hardest things.... Meeting patients who know that research is so close to giving them the answers to get back their lives and to be lifted out of the pain they're in or the condition they may have are the types of things that stay with you afterwards, long into the night, and they so desperately want us to make these investments. I would suggest that it's an area where we really could put down the partisan swords.

I think I mentioned another one, which is Bill C-72, on the interoperability of data. Again, I'm not aware of any opposition to these things, and yet they're not supported because there seems to be a view that being against everything is the job of an official opposition. I just don't agree with that.

I did spend two terms in opposition, where you try to advocate in favour of solutions and ideas, and I think that Parliament, in this minority government, got a ton done, and yes, on research. We are in a time of miracles, and we need to press just a little further so that the people who are afflicted with diseases and conditions can be elevated and live their best lives.

It's a roll of the dice. It could happen to any one of us. I think all of us would hope that if one of the people we loved or we ourselves had a condition visited upon us, we had a country that was doing everything it could to find solutions and invest in the science, the data and the evidence to find answers.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I agree with you, Minister, and I'll be frank with you: I think the Conservatives have been really disappointing. I mean, they have only slogans. They stand in the way of progress. They have an agenda of cuts, and they prove it again and again, every single time. They're just hungry for power, and that's it. They've lost the purpose around really serving Canadians and finding ways to work together, and we see that. I see this in this committee, with insults and long, frivolous speeches. On and on it goes.

Anyway, I want to come back to Canada's dental care plan, because I think that's really exciting. I continue to meet with seniors in my community, right here in Ottawa Centre, who are telling me that they are finally getting a chance to see a dentist or a denturist and getting the care they have needed for a long period of time. I'm sure you're hearing those stories as well.

Tell us where we are at. What are the next steps when it comes to the CDCP? There are many others, also in my community, who want access to this program.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Let's talk about seniors first. When we were announcing the one million mark—one million people connected to care—a gentleman who was at the clinic where we were came up to me. He said, “You know, a lot of years ago I had to get a tooth pulled, and it cost $700, and do you know what? I didn't go back. When I had problems in my mouth, I was terrified to walk in. I knew I couldn't afford it. I was afraid to get care.” He said, “Now I'm getting care again. I'm not afraid to go to the dentist.”

This is what this is about: people being connected to the care that they need, not having to be afraid that they're not going to be able to afford it and not being terrified, when they get a pain in their mouth, of whether or not it's going to lead to some devastating outcome that they can't afford and they have to wait to be in an emergency room to get it fixed.

I hear stories from seniors. When I was talking to a mobile smile clinic in Windsor, Navjeet was telling me about seniors setting up their family photographs once they got their dentures in, and how it's transforming their life and the joy that it gave them. You know, we're all going to exit this earth, and we're certainly going to exit this Parliament, but those stories will stay with me for the rest of my life. Connecting people to that care everywhere is absolutely critical, and we have a lot more people to connect. We're going to get there. We're going to do it as fast as we can.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Every single step of the way, Conservatives have voted against that program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you for staying longer than was scheduled.

That brings us to the end of this round of questions. You're welcome to stay, but you're free to leave.

Colleagues, I don't propose to suspend the meeting. We have a budget for the supplementary estimates that I would like your approval of. While we're approving that budget, perhaps we could have the other officials take up their places.

There have been some discussions among the parties. Some MPs are going to be racing for the airport soon, so I would propose that when we get the officials back up, we have even turns for the four parties of, say, four to five minutes. That will allow for adjournment at about 5:30, which will allow some of us to catch our flights.

Is everyone comfortable with that? If not, we'll go through the normal rounds of questions and entertain a motion for adjournment in the normal course.

I see some thumbs up around the table.

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. We very much appreciate you being here, as always.

A budget has been circulated to you, colleagues, in the amount of $1,000. That will cover this meeting and the next—this one with Minister Holland and the other one with Minister Saks. I would ask for approval of that budget, so that you get to have a sandwich or something.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the budget as presented?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I see no objections and a few thumbs up. The budget is therefore adopted.

We're going to do a sound check for Dr. Powlowski and then we'll start with rounds of questions.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I think I'm okay, because Arielle will do the questions.

[The Clerk]

Excuse me, Mr. Powlowski; we need to do the sound check.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You can try, but I won't be asking questions. Arielle will be asking the questions for us.

[The Clerk]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That makes it easy. Thank you, Dr. Powlowski.

Okay, I have 5:10, so I'm going to propose questions of five minutes in length.

We have a couple of additional officials with us. I'll simply introduce them and then we'll open it up for questions.

Joining the meeting at this point, from the Department of Health, we have Jocelyne Voisin, assistant deputy minister of the health policy branch, and Dr. Celia Lourenco, associate assistant deputy minister, health products and food branch.

From the Public Health Agency of Canada, we have Martin Krumins, vice-president and chief financial officer.

Welcome to the newcomers. Thanks to the rest of you for staying here.

We're going to begin now with rounds of questions, starting with Dr. Ellis, I believe, for five minutes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks very much, Chair, and thanks to the officials for being here.

The nature of my questions today will be on the topic of lapsed funding, if that's helpful to all of you.

Mr. Costen, from the reading that we've been doing, it appears that at Health Canada, almost 35% of total funding ends up in lapsed funding. My understanding is that lapsed funding, of course, is not spent on programming.

Could you explain to the committee where that lapsed funding goes when it's not used—back into general revenues, perhaps—and which programs exactly are affected by lapsed funding?

[Eric Costen, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Health]

Honestly, I think there are many reasons that programs would lapse funds. There are many consequences to lapsed funds, one of which is to have it returned to the general revenue fund.

In order to give you a sort of a precise accounting of the source of lapsed funding for the department, I think it's probably best that we return to you in writing. We'd be happy to provide that information.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

That would be great, Mr. Costen, if you could.

Would you be so kind as to detail exactly which programs were affected? I think it would be important to look at the last couple of years for lapsed funding. If you would do that and table it with the committee as soon as you can, that would be great.

[Eric Costen]

Yes, that would be fine.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Jeffrey, I would ask you the same question.

Under the Public Health Agency of Canada, it would appear that there is lapsed funding in the years that we're able to look at. I obviously don't have this year's figures, but perhaps 47% of the funding of PHAC ended up as lapsed funding.

My question to you is similar to the one for Mr. Costen. Could you confirm this number, which is considerably high, in my opinion?

If you're not able to do so now, could you please table with the committee the exact programs that have been affected over the last two years with lapsed funding?

[Heather Jeffrey, President, Public Health Agency of Canada]

Indeed, in 2023-24 the lapse reported by the Public Health Agency was $1.1 billion. All of this money, in large part, was related to COVID-19 expenditures that did not need to take place due to the fact that the emergency phase of the pandemic had subsided. Some of this money, $59 million, was re-profiled to future years.

The lapse is attributed to a reduction in vaccine and therapeutics procurement, a reduction in the need to purchase medical countermeasures and a reduction in the cost of warehousing due to the end of the emergency phase of the pandemic.

If you'd like further detail, our CFO, Martin Krumins, is here and can further elaborate.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I appreciate that. I think that's sufficient. Again, if you could table that in writing to the committee, that would be most helpful.

I have a couple of questions, Ms. Jeffrey.

For the record, I believe that Ms. Jeffrey concurred that yes, she would provide that in writing. I saw her head nodding, just to be clear on that.

Talk a bit about the national stockpile for Canadians, if you would. How are we doing with the national stockpile? Do we have specific measures in place related to ensuring that we're not going to have an expired national stockpile, as we saw before the terrible pandemic of 2020?

[Heather Jeffrey]

A comprehensive management plan has been put in place for the national emergency stockpile. The stockpile contains assets in the form of goods, such as cots and blankets for emergency response, as well as medical countermeasures, vaccines and therapeutics to support provinces and territories in emergencies.

An inventory management system has been modernized and put in place. The stockpile is obviously much more significant than it was prepandemic, and it has a diversity of supplies. It has been used, in fact, to respond to emergencies since COVID-19, such as mpox outbreaks, wildfires and other areas for which provinces and territories requested federal support.