Health Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

In Doug Ford's Ontario, last week I was in—

I'm being interrupted and heckled by the Conservatives because—

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

They know that you're lying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Doherty, you don't have the floor and nobody tried to interrupt you when you did.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In going to the emergency ward at the Ottawa Civic last week after a bicycle accident, it was 14 hours. Mr. Doherty thinks that's great and so does Dr. Ellis.

Conservative provinces have been terrible on health care outcomes and terrible on extra billing.

I want to know what actions the government and you as health minister are taking against this extra billing and the erosion of our health care system, particularly in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario, which are the worst offenders and have absolutely terrible health outcomes, terrible waiting lists and terrible health care systems undermined by Conservative politicians.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Look, it takes everybody moving in the same direction. It's not enough that the federal government does its part. Obviously, hospitals and health systems are actually managed by provinces, so it's hugely consequential whether or not they make the appropriate investments. You're absolutely right in that.

One thing I would point to is the agreements that we signed with provinces. For the first time, there were conditions. There were tailored bilateral agreements. There were common indicators.

CIHI just had its baseline data. When it comes out next year, we're actually going to be able to see in data rather than in anecdote which provinces are making the advances and which ones are not.

It's very interesting. In Manitoba, Nova Scotia and B.C., these elections turned on health care. People care deeply about this, so I think there's certainly a major electoral consequence to it.

We have used the Canada Health Act in many different instances to charge provinces when they're charging private fees, but this is a major topic. We have a health ministers' meeting coming up, and I would rather get there through collaboration. Obviously, that's the preferred goal.

I've had a very good conversation, as an example, with Jane Philpott in Ontario around the work she's doing in primary care. Michelle Thompson, whom I was talking to and sharing messages with, has some great ideas, in a Conservative jurisdiction, on how they can improve their health system.

There's no reason for this to be.... Just because a government is Conservative, it doesn't need to take the federal Conservative position of making cuts and attacking the health system. There's a way that we can work together collaboratively, and I think that's what we should do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Next is Mrs. Goodridge, please, for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, we had B.C.'s RCMP assistant commissioner, Will Ng, come to the health committee about six months ago. He talked about the very serious concerns about how 80% of the precursor chemicals used in fentanyl production are still legal and unregulated in Canada.

Why has Health Canada been dragging its feet for the last two and a half years to do anything on this?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

One of the greatest concerns with this is that a lot of these precursor chemicals are used in normal, legal commercial enterprises. It's very hard to stop some of this, because a lot of what's being used can be found in legal products.

I deeply share this concern. This is one of the things being worked on very actively now. We have a conversation with our American counterparts about how we can do this together. I think taking a North American approach and working collaboratively across North America makes full and complete sense.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Because the U.S. has finally said that enough is enough, you are finally going to take action?

You've been in government for nine years. Why won't you actually take immediate action to make sure that Canadians are safe? Canadians are dying every single day. Twenty-two Canadians are dying from addiction every single day under your watch.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

The problem with fentanyl is that it is so insidious. It is so easy to manufacture, to hide and to send, so it is so devastating. We have absolutely been taking every action that we can to both block the precursors—I explained the complication of a lot of them being legal—and also stop the supply.

There's nothing new about working with the United States. It's about trying to have a conversation with a new administration about how we collaborate better. The action that we've been taking—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thanks, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mrs. Goodridge, go ahead, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—is doing everything that we can on the basis of evidence and science. I can assure you that I care about it every bit as much as you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Continue, Ms. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

What Canadians can hear from what you've just said is that you're doing nothing and that you're okay with that.

To go back to this whole conversation around scurvy, food inflation has increased 36% higher in Canada than it has in the U.S., which means the carbon tax that you guys continue to jack up—and you plan on jacking up again come this spring—is going to further make food more expensive.

Canadians are now getting scurvy. Your plan is to remove tax for a couple months on cheese puffs and chips. Why not make healthy food more attainable so that Canadians can eat?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

As I just explained, scurvy exists in communities of extreme food insecurity, mostly indigenous. These people don't have cars. They're not driving around. They pay no carbon tax, but they do get a carbon rebate. Your policy would be to take the rebate away from them. I can guarantee that taking cash away from somebody is not going to help them not have scurvy.

I would ask this: What are your policies? I can tell you what our policies are around food insecurity.

Then, the second thing I would ask is this: Can you tell us whether you support vaccination, full stop? A lot of misinformation around vaccinations and a lot of misinformation around diseases cause problems. I've been trying to say that we should have a unified view on these issues.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Quite respectfully, most of these communities that are seeing scurvy increase are in the north, where they do, in fact, have to pay carbon tax to heat their house and to keep the electricity on. That's a bill they see every single month as a direct result of your government's policies.

Frankly, it's really rich for you, coming from a southern Ontario area, to be sitting here lecturing me on what food insecurity looks like in the north. I'm someone who lives north.

I'm sorry, Minister; this is absolutely part of the problem. If you guys just got rid of the carbon tax, people could afford to heat, eat and house themselves. Why won't you take the carbon tax off?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

We won't because that's disingenuous and untrue. The people you're talking about who are so food insecure that they have scurvy are almost exclusively in indigenous communities. These are people of very limited means who are not paying next to anything in terms of carbon tax—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Are you okay with that? You're okay with people having scurvy?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I don't know if I'm allowed to finish.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes, you are.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If I'm allowed to finish, the point I'm making is that these people get way more back in a rebate cheque that they can use for food insecurity. You would take that away from them.

In other words, in terms of the price on pollution, you would eliminate the action on pollution and protecting our climate, and you would then take away money that they get, and they would be left in an even more insecure situation.

I think it's disingenuous to say to somebody who's suffering that you're going to take away money that they need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

What has your government done to make sure that Canadians are not getting scurvy? Have you done anything?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a short answer, please.