Health Committee on June 20th, 2022

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Can I assume that the data collection will get better so that you know when you hit the 11,000 target?

Somewhat related to that, is it 11,000 new internationally credentialed professionals or is it 11,000 gross number, including the ones who are currently credentialed under existing programs? This is new money that's being brought to bear. How many new credentials will be recognized through this program?

[Erin Connell]

Again, it's not necessarily the number of people whose credentials are recognized. That could be part of it. We do have good reporting results on our projects. It would be a mixture of those who go through the credential recognition process and, thanks to our projects, receive loans and participate in Canadian work experience opportunities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Connell and Mr. Bachrach.

We'll now go back to Dr. Ellis, please, for five minutes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to the witnesses.

I'd like to pick up on that line of questioning. When you're talking about 11,000 individuals being credentialed, do you have a breakdown of what their professions are?

[Andrew Brown]

Ms. Connell, are you able to jump in there?

[Erin Connell]

We don't have an exact breakdown yet. This is new money. Typically, we do invest heavily in the health sector. Even before the pandemic, the program invested 25% to 30% of its program funding in the health sector. We anticipate ramping that up, as we had started to do when the pandemic hit. We will continue to focus on the health sector as well as reach out to other in-demand sectors in Canada, including, perhaps, the skilled trades and information and communications technology.

In the short term, the health sector is certainly a very big priority for us.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

When do you anticipate having those numbers from the health sector?

[Erin Connell]

It would be after we have a new set of project agreements set up. I would say within the year we would have targets.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You do understand that 10% of Canadians, at minimum, don't have a family doctor, and we're short 60,000 to 70,000 nurses. That being said, of the 11,000 people, you said 30% of them are in the health sector. Let's be kind and say it's 4,000 people. We're short 60,000 nurses, so that's a drop in the bucket. I'll just leave it at that.

As well, you talked about 20 projects that you're undertaking. I think the committee would be very interested to know two things. One, how many of them are health-related? Two, of those that are health-related, would you please table those projects with the health committee within the next month?

[Erin Connell]

Thank you for that. We would be happy to. All 20 of the projects we referenced are indeed in the health sector. We would be happy to table the list of projects with their descriptions.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

That's great. We would also, of course, love the metrics associated with those studies.

That being said, are the studies you're undertaking being driven by your office, or are you asking for proposals from the provincial governments?

[Erin Connell]

We have continuous intake for the foreign credential recognition program. We are happy to accept a project concept or a proposal from a provincial or territorial government, a regulatory authority or an immigrant-serving or other organization. The program also regularly launches calls for proposals. We are in the planning stages for that.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

If I could be clear then, it could be from anyone, from an individual to a province, but there's really not a plan here.

We're spending $115 million, plus your regular funding—which I'm not sure what it is, but I'd be interested to hear that—on something that we're asking somebody else to plan for. Even though we already know the scope of the problem in general and the urgency thereof, there's no federal plan on how to address it.

[Erin Connell]

I would say that there is a federal plan. As Mr. Brown said, we work collaboratively with our partners at Health Canada and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada on our piece of the puzzle—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Can I interrupt you, Ms. Connell? I feel that this could be somewhat disrespectful, and I don't mean it to be.

I would suggest that a plan would be somebody having an idea and outlining it, and then filling in those parts and asking other people to be a part of that, not asking other people to come up with the idea. That's not a plan.

Again, I'm not trying to be controversial, but a plan would be, “I'm telling you what to do. Here's the plan. Here's what we are going to do.” What you're doing is convening some meetings with either individuals or provinces.

[Erin Connell]

I understand your frustration.

The fact of the matter is that foreign credential recognition, and licensure and certification, is a provincial and territorial responsibility. We convene—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm going to interrupt you again, because you're telling me stuff that I already know, and this committee knows intimately well. I do apologize for sounding rude, but we only have so much time.

With that being said, if it's a provincial jurisdiction, then why are we spending an extra $115 million and your entire budget on something that is not a plan?

Again, I'll be totally honest with you. You do not understand my frustration, because I'm talking here on behalf of up to five million Canadians who can't see a family doctor. You don't have a plan. At least your department does not have a plan. I am exceedingly frustrated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Connell, we're past time. You can provide a response, without interruption, if you like.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Chair, it's fine. It's good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we have Mr. Jowhari, please, for five minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both officials for showing up today.

In both of your responses, Mr. Brown and Ms. Connell, you talked about collaboration. I specifically recall that when you, Mr. Brown, were responding to my colleague Monsieur Garon, you talked about the strategy. You said that the best thing we can do is that we can put a strategy together.

As I'm sure you've followed HESA over the year, we have consistently been hearing about the theme of a pan-Canadian framework or strategy, whether it's for health workforce planning or for licensure for physicians across the country. We also talked about the role that the federal government needs to play to be able to make a difference. We realize that these are provincial and territorial...and also some of these professional organizations.

Mr. Brown, as well as Ms. Connell, can you help us understand what lever the federal government has to be able to play a much more effective role in addressing some of these issues? Whether it's the licensure or the length of time, the residency spaces or making sure of the supply and demand of physicians in the jurisdiction, what lever do we have that we could apply as the federal government?

[Andrew Brown]

Thank you for the question. I think there are perhaps a couple of different things that we can think about.

I recognize that there is a lot of focus here on the foreign credential recognition program, and I think that is a piece of it. I think we also need to take a look at our own programs, and for provinces and territories to look at their own skills and employment and training to see what some of the opportunities are to address the shortages. I think it's a number of things.

If we turn to the foreign credential recognition program for a moment, in that case, I might turn to Ms. Connell, to see if there are specific pieces we might point to in that area that would help in terms of a federal lever.

[Erin Connell]

We do convene conversations bilaterally and multilaterally with our provincial and territorial partners to better understand their needs and priorities and to talk about partnerships moving forward.

This is a G and C project-based program. We do reach out to regulatory authorities as well. As mentioned earlier, we are currently funding 20 projects in the health sector and continue to do more in that space, so to that—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you. I apologize for interrupting you. We heard that before, but I'm not sure whether that's a lever or not.

I know that ESDC has recently released a pan-Canadian framework for the assessment and recognition of foreign qualifications, which is more of a guideline to work toward improving the integration of internationally trained workers into the labour market, rather than serving as a legally binding document where the provinces or other organizations have to follow up.

Where is the power of this document going to come from?

[Andrew Brown]

All right, Ms. Connell, are you able to help out in terms of the reference there to the pan-Canadian document?