Health Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It would be helpful, then, if you read out the motion for all of us so we know what we're dealing with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Perhaps the clerk could read out the motion that's before the committee right now.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Naaman Sugrue]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

This notice of motion by Mr. Hanley, dated Thursday, February 3, reads:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee, in recognition of exhaustion and burnout amongst healthcare professionals, undertake a study on how the federal government can facilitate the recruitment and retention of physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners and other health care providers to the public healthcare system; including a focus on rural and northern communities. That this study be prioritized by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health in the 44th Parliament. That the Committee invite experts and representatives to appear; that the Committee hold a minimum of eight (8) meetings with witnesses on this study; that the committee present its findings and recommendations to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109 the committee request a comprehensive response to the report by the government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

There you have it, Mr. Davies.

Now that you have the motion before you, do you still have an intervention?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I do have an amendment, but I think Mr. Berthold had an amendment he wanted to move before mine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

He did and the debate is currently on the amendment, which essentially removes the words in the motion that have this as our first order of business.

Next we're going to Mr. Lake, please, on the amendment.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

I'm looking at the motion as it's in the digital binder, but I can't see the reference to it being the first order of business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Lake, I'm not sure the motion that was presented today is the same as the one in the digital binder. That may be the problem.

Dr. Hanley, do you want to respond?

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes, maybe I can clarify.

My apologies, but I think I read a previous wording. I think we had changed it to “prioritization” because we recognized that it was not the first study. The essence of what I'm trying to propose is that of the studies that we're presently discussing as next in line, I propose this be the first of those because of the urgent nature of addressing the health care workforce crisis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] taking out the line “That this study be prioritized by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health in the 44th Parliament", just to be clear.

Okay, I support that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think “prioritize” is the right word.

If my colleagues indulge me, I just want to start by thanking Sonya for putting in the summary of the testimonies from the previous Parliament, specifically on the COVID-19 pandemic collateral effects on page 3. I want to highlight the paragraph, as this talks to the point of why this study should be prioritized—not necessarily the first one, but near the top. I'm quoting from page 3, paragraph number 4:

The committee heard that more needs to be done than simply addressing the backlog since the healthcare system has been stretched for years. Prior to the pandemic, Ontario was in need of an additional 20,000 nurses, according to Ms. Worsfold. Today, five million Canadians do not have access to a family doctor or primary care team, according to Dr. Collins. Furthermore, about two thirds of Ontario’s nurses reported in 2019 that their work environment was fair to poor and almost as many, 60%, were considering leaving their jobs, one quarter of whom intended to leave the nursing profession. Dr. Legault worried that those health-care workers who were taken out of their areas of specialty to deal with COVID-19 surges, such as surgical nurses, might not return.

This is just one aspect of the health care resources. They're in crisis. They were in crisis before, and they're going to be continuing the crisis.

I definitely support not only doing this study but prioritizing it. It's impacting our ability to be able to provide the health care support that's needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.

Mr. Thériault, the floor is yours.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I didn't raise my hand, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Dr. Hanley, please.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I want to speak to the amendment as well as the motion itself. I do believe that this should be prioritized, although I do not support the amendment.

I'm thinking of Dr. Ellis who in question period today referred quite passionately and eloquently, I will say, to the burden on health care that the pandemic has exacerbated and to Canada's exhausted workforce. I'm confident that we have support in the room for a national conversation on Canada's health care workforce and what federal levers and mechanisms can be used to pave the way for the recruitment of health care workers and reform the way we think and deliver health care.

As we know, this is well supported by the Canadian public, by the Canadian Medical Association, Canadian Nurses Association, Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists, Canadian Pharmacists Association and many other health care associations and agencies.

I do think it speaks to the urgency of addressing this, particularly as our mechanisms to get through whatever else we're thrown at with the pandemic that.... We need a robust health care workforce. If we're considering de-escalating public health restrictions and mandates, we need a strong health care workforce to be able to rely on this.

I know that health care workers themselves are watching us. I know, to Monsieur Berthold's point, that Canada is watching us. They have a lot of expectations for this committee. I think that, among the many valuable motions that have been put forward, this is the one that we need to look at most urgently.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. Hanley.

Dr. Powlowski, please go ahead.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Maybe I should save myself a long speech, and say I agree with Brendan, but being a politician I won't.

I have two things. We do have the most members in Parliament, so it doesn't seem totally crazy that we get our study in first.

I certainly support the Conservative study. I like your study. I like your children's study, and I'm going to support it. But with respect to this, and the urgency of this situation, I agree with Brendan. We've always had a shortage, and I know people on the other side agree with that. Especially in rural and northern areas, we've always had a shortage of primary care practitioners.

Certainly, under COVID this is being made worse. Many people are burned out, including nurses and doctors. The reality is, given the baby boom, there are many people who are about retirement age, and coming out of COVID they're saying, “That's it, no more. I don't want to do it”.

I'm a little in the same position myself, although I jumped ship before COVID, not afterwards. I know there are many health practitioners who are tired. They need assistance. The health care system is struggling as it is. It's going to struggle harder, because of an increased shortage of personnel.

There's an urgency to this. A number of us here in the room are on the same page on this. We are a minority government. It takes time to get things done. Why don't we start working on this? We can hopefully find solutions, and perhaps we can even work together to find solutions, which would be really nice. A crazy thought, I know. Okay, forget I said that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Davies, please go ahead.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to say that I've seen a number of studies put forward by every party now. In fact, some parties have put forward more than one. Every single one that I've read has been very important. I can think of seven or eight studies that would be easily justifiable as warranting being the first study that we proceed with, but we're going to have to pick only one. It doesn't mean we won't get to the other studies. We probably have time to get a study and a half done before June, and then we have all the fall that we're going to get to. The bottom line is that at some point we have to pick a study that's important and we have to get started on it. I don't think this means that the second study we look at, or the third or the fourth, is any less important.

I'll second some things that were said by Dr. Hanley on this. There is clearly a crisis—I think we call it the health care human resources crisis—in this country. I believe it preceded COVID-19. I think COVID-19 has exposed it and exacerbated it, but if you talk to the major health stakeholders, they will tell you that shortages of MRI technicians, family doctors, certain specialists, and nurses and nurse practitioners, particularly in rural and indigenous communities, have been long-standing. It's fully justified as a major priority for this committee.

There are a lot of interesting national angles. I think it's a national problem. This is not just a problem that's happening in Saskatchewan, for example, or in Prince Edward Island or Quebec or British Columbia. It's happening in every single province. National problems require national solutions.

In preparation for this meeting, I was reviewing a letter that had been sent to this committee last year by a number of health care stakeholders. They pointed out some of the very useful things that could happen if the federal government convened a national round table, or had some sort of standing committee to help deal with the issue of the shortage of health care professionals. One of the things they thought they could do was to develop a national data collection service. Alberta doesn't necessarily know what is going on in Quebec, nor does any other province.

Similarly, not every province is experiencing the same health care professional issue in exactly the same way. For the federal government to convene a coordinating body—I think that was the term used—to make sure that all the provinces and territories were funnelling data and sharing data on their particular issues was an important thing for the federal government to do. If the federal government doesn't do that, who will? Nobody else will.

As well, I might point out that the federal government has exclusive jurisdiction over immigration. I think that immigration will be one piece of solving this. We use our immigrations system, when it's working well, to attract to our country people with skills, occupations and talents that are needed in our country. That can be explored.

I had a meeting last week with the head of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Catherine Smart. They are formally talking about the issue of having a national certification for physicians. With virtual care now, perhaps a doctor who is certified in one province may very well be able to consult, or treat or see patients in a different province. That's another issue that could be looked at on a national level.

There are lots of areas to look into this. As you've seen, one of my motions is to study children's nutrition. I think Mr. Berthold graciously amended his study motion to include that. Children's health is an equally worthy issue.

But we have to pick one. I'll try to break the ice here and say that I'm happy to support the health care human resources crisis first, and then we should really do the Conservatives' motion on child health second. Mr. Thériault and I will be bridesmaids, and we'll pull up the rear at some point.

I think at some point we just have to agree to get going on business, and I don't want to get into a fight over what's first. Something has to go first. They are both important issues so I'm happy to support this motion.

I will be moving a motion similarly, and I'll give notice of it now, that we have equal witnesses for each of the parties. I just want to get that out because—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We have a point of order on the floor.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Maybe it's a point of clarification, sir. Are we in debate or are we bringing forth other motions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We are in a debate on the amendment to the motion.

Mr. Davies, go ahead.