Health Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

I take Mr. Davies' advice. The one suggestion I would have is that we go with COVID for even-numbered meetings and non-COVID studies for odd-numbered meetings. If we're going to use the first two meetings next week on COVID, we can also discuss our plan forward on COVID as part of that conversation. We don't need to decide that now, in terms of witnesses.

I would suggest, so that we get a good start after the break, that the first two meetings be on the human resources study; following that week, we'll start alternating again, with Mondays being about COVID and Wednesdays being about human resources.

Does that make sense? Next week, as Mr. Davies suggested, we'll have two meetings, both on COVID. At that time, we'll also discuss our plan moving forward on the COVID side of things. Coming out of the break, we'll have the first two meetings on human resources.

I didn't catch when the deadline for witnesses would be then, Mr. Davies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

What he proposed was Monday and Tuesday of next week.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

It would be Monday and Tuesday of next week. That's an extension from what we were talking about.

While I have the floor, can I throw out that we could put forward a primary list of witnesses? There's nothing to stop us from adding more names as this study goes on. We might have some ideas as the study goes on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Dr. Hanley.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Recognizing the time, there's definitely merit in what Mr. Lake is saying. At the same time, it would be easy to get certain witnesses lined up for next week to set the stage for what might help us to be able to plan the next few meetings more methodically. It serves to meet the priority aspect of this—we are really concerned about the state of our workforce—and it would give us the time to make the future meetings successful.

I would respectfully submit that we do it that way. I'm pretty confident we can set the stage well for witnesses for next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I definitely support my colleague, Mr. Hanley, but if I may, I'll suggest a compromise.

We start on Monday on COVID, as agreed, and do our best to make sure we get witnesses for Wednesday on the study on HHR. If we cannot get any witnesses, then we move into doing the second meeting on COVID. That way we have a backup plan. We have a plan that we move forward and a contingency plan if we can't get the witnesses.

However, I believe we will be able to get witnesses for the Wednesday meeting on the study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

We have a couple of different suggestions. I'm not going to repeat what I said.

I like Mr. Lake's suggestion. I think that's eminently reasonable.

We could start by next week, but we have a very busy day tomorrow in the House. I can speak for some of us. We have an opposition day motion on health care. We're tied up on that.

It's not fair to the committee to say that we have tomorrow to fire in our witnesses. I want to think about the witnesses I want to put forward. I want to consult some of the witnesses. It takes some time.

There's no pressing reason that we have to rush to do this for next Wednesday. Again, it's also the practical reality that it's difficult for the clerk to contact and line up witnesses on four business days' notice. I don't see any real reason to rush this process that fast when we've taken a week and a half to get started. Also, there's going to be some overlap of witnesses and it might take some time to work that out.

I stand by what I said. We should have until the end of Monday to get in our witnesses on the health study. I like Mike's suggestion about taking the second meeting next week to not only to finish off the briefing but maybe have a chat about how we might want to structure the COVID study and what kinds of issues we might want to look at. That might be helpful.

We also have to get in our witnesses on COVID. I'm okay with both meetings during the week after the break week being on the health care human resources study. That means there will be eight witnesses called that we have to prepare for. The week after that, we're going to have to have a meeting or two on COVID.

Those of us who have served on committees have some sense of the cadence of these things and how long things take. It seems like a really easy thing to go out and get our witnesses and tomorrow we'll schedule them. It usually takes a bit longer than that.

I stand by my suggestion on the end of business day Monday and with Mr. Lake's schedule.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

We need to make a decision before the end of this meeting. I listened to my Liberal colleagues here. The compromise they're suggesting makes some sense, too.

I could go either way, quite honestly. Given that there are five members of the Liberal party and colleagues here....

As a reminder to Mr. Davies, what we discussed here is that we don't need to put our full witness list here. We just need to get some preliminary witnesses out so that we have a good first meeting, as Dr. Hanley brought up in his comments.

Maybe that's just the way we go to get something moving. We can decide on our preliminary witnesses—enough to have one meeting and get started. We can let our steering committee decide when we need to get our main list of witnesses together.

In the interest of compromise and of moving on, I think we've had a great meeting. I'm willing to agree with Dr. Hanley and Mr. Jowhari.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Unfortunately, we've spent quite a lot of time. I think it's really important that we get to work. I respectfully submit that we should start our human health resources study on Wednesday. I appreciate that from my colleagues from the Conservatives.

We owe it to Canadians to get right to work as quickly as possible with preliminary witnesses and have our first HHR study on Wednesday.

That's my position. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Hanley.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

My suggestion would be to Don, if—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Hanley has the floor.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

No, I give way to Marcus...as long as it's agreed.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm going to give it to Sonia.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I would suggest to Don, if you go with what Brendan has suggested, then next week we would have the first one on COVID, then the second one with the Canadian Medical Association and the Canadian Nurses Association for a general overview of the problem with shortages. We think that getting, for example, the Canadian Medical Association, the Canadian Nurses Association and a few academics who want to talk about the situation in general in terms of the health workforce shortage, would be easy enough to do. Then we could get going and have a plan for next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

What's the proposal? If we are going to get our briefing on Monday and then Wednesday we'll start the human resources study, what is the deadline for getting a few witnesses in? I didn't hear what Dr. Hanley's suggestion was.

By the way, I think we should also pick a date to get witnesses in for COVID to start when we come back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Hanley, do you want to respond to that? Then I'll go to Monsieur Berthold.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Sure. I didn't necessarily submit it, but I think the advice that we received on the floor was end of day tomorrow to have that preliminary list for next Wednesday.