Health Committee on Dec. 6th, 2023

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Again, if you're interested in badgering me, you're succeeding. If you're interested in an answer, I'll return to Ms. Jeffrey.

[Heather Jeffrey]

The $150 million was the advance payment for the at-risk manufacturing of those vaccines to guarantee Canadian access to doses from Medicago.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There's no advance payment clause in the contract.

In fact, will you release the contract publicly? Before public accounts, the president of Mitsubishi said that he would release an unredacted copy of it publicly. Will you release it, since the president was willing to release it?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I can respond to that.

The contract has been released in its entirety, unredacted. The public accounts committee, under the Auditor General—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Publicly.... He said he would release it publicly.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Releasing contracts publicly would place Canada's ability to enter into contracts with any company in vast jeopardy. Of course, you know that, and that's the game you're playing.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's the same reason why you're not releasing the Stellantis contract—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No. It's the game you're playing to try to create misinformation.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

—because you're hiding the fact that what you're saying here is simply not true. It doesn't require you to pay this. It's a penalty because you entered a contract that said you had to buy 76 million doses.

I'll ask you again: Who owns the IP?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

The question of the IP is an ongoing matter, and it's not the subject of this committee's discussion.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It is, because you're spending $323 million of Canadians' taxpayer money, and the president of Mitsubishi, before public accounts, publicly said that he would release the contract publicly. He also said that the IP was owned by them, not by the Government of Canada.

Has Mitsubishi sold the IP?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I'm not going to respond to questions around IP today. Those matters are being dealt with by Minister Champagne. He will respond to them, but I will say to you that, looking backwards, with the knowledge that you have now of what worked and what didn't is a very curious way to approach this.

I certainly hope that no future government would be saddled with the kind of decision-making that you're inferring we should have taken.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes, it's true. We would never sign a contract that doesn't make sure that $200 million of Canadian taxpayer money.... Canadians don't own the IP. We would never sign a contract that says I'm going to have to pay $150 million in a penalty because I didn't receive a single vial of a vaccine. We would never sign a contract that allows the largest company in Japan to sell Canadian-financed IP to anyone in the world.

The level of incompetence of this government in signing these contracts.... When ministers don't even read the contracts.... You haven't read them. You weren't the minister at the time, but I would have thought that, in preparation for this meeting, you would have read the contract.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Sir, the officials who operate.... One day—and I hope it doesn't happen—if you are in government.... The experts and the individuals we rely upon to enter into these contracts do so at arm's-length. We do not make a decision—me, as a minister—to tell them how we enter into contracts.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I didn't say you made—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If you're suggesting that you would reach over and tell—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No. What I'm suggesting is that I would read a contract.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Perkins....

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—the bureaucracy how you would do contracts, I'm saying there would be no contracts—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

He got equal time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—and you would not have protected this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

No, he didn't—not yet.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I haven't had time for his question....

I don't know, Mr. Chair.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What I'm saying is that I would read a contract before I signed it and before I pissed away $323 million of Canadians' taxpayer money.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Perkins, your question took 40 seconds. You interrupted him after about eight seconds, and he's not finished his answer. You don't have time to ask another question because you're out of time.

You have time to complete your answer, Minister. Go ahead.