Evidence of meeting #11 for Health in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was across.
A video is available from Parliament.
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
It's very difficult to get a clinical assistant position, but for surgery, I don't think there's anything at all. It helps you to bridge the gap in your recency of practice, but it doesn't bring you into the profession.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
There are those kinds of assistant positions, but after finishing them, you can't go on to do your practice.
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
Exactly. It keeps you in health care, but it doesn't change anything. It helps you with the gap.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
In both of your cases, you're physicians who were trained overseas. You've both acknowledged that you perhaps need a bit more training before licensing. The systems aren't exactly the same. The training isn't exactly the same. It seems that there ought to be something tailor-made. Dr. Amiri, you'd do a one-year residency. Dr. Hulko, you'd work with a surgeon for a year or two to get you up to speed. There should be something that allows you to come up to the right standard.
I take it that there isn't anything easily available for either of you to do that.
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
I agree. There isn't anything available.
Liberal
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
It's almost impossible. We have clinical assistant positions in all of the provinces, but they are not licensed. Basically, you work there, but it's not acknowledged, so it's like you're doing nothing.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Both of you come from countries where there might be reasons why you may not want to go back for a year or two to practise. Is that really feasible? That's one of the things we've heard. People haven't practised for a while, so they go back to their old country and do a bit of bridging, but in both of your cases, you come from countries where that's perhaps not an option.
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
Exactly. It's not an option, unfortunately, in my country, because there's a war in Ukraine and my country is pretty much involved, and it's not safe for me. It's not an option, unfortunately.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier
Thank you. That's the end of that round.
Now we have Mr. Thériault for six minutes.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to welcome the witnesses. I would also like to welcome the witness who is joining us by video conference.
I am always a little stunned to hear the testimony of people who have a vocation, who make every effort, who pass all the tests and who persevere despite the difficulties. We have heard testimony showing that there are enormous constraints, and that is a little beyond me.
I want to understand one thing, Dr. Hulko.
You say that at this stage, after passing all the exams, a directive would declare your application inadmissible because you did not attend secondary school in the same province. Is that correct?
You must have asked what the purpose of such a measure would be. Can you shed some light on this for me?
International Medical Doctor, Catholic Community Services of York Region
That was very shocking to me. This is the new rule, and I am trying to understand it. I know that Canada has to prioritize a lot, but honestly, I don't find it reasonable in any way, because if you are looking for competent physicians, you're not looking at where they finished their high school; you're looking at how competent they are.
I'm fine with all of these medical exams. I'm more than happy to prove that I'm competent, but high school in the same province.... It was midway, as I said, so I didn't consider other provinces, and now I'm out of the first iteration. Honestly, I feel very frustrated and a bit lost.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
There is no rational explanation for this measure in a context of labour shortages and a shortage of doctors. Health professionals who were trained abroad and who have passed all the tests and exams are being told that they have completed all the steps, but that they did not attend secondary school in the same province.
What does this mean? Does this measure simply favour people who were born here or who arrived in the country when they were of secondary school age? I don’t understand this logic. You don’t seem to understand it either. Perhaps I’ll ask people who do understand this kind of logic. However, it’s a rather absurd position to take.
This problem has existed for 30 years. We bring people in from abroad. We tell them that they will be able to thrive in their host society. I have seen qualified people become taxi drivers. That is a total waste.
Whether there is a labour shortage or not, we say we want to welcome people properly, but we don’t have the dignity to organize ourselves so that they can share their skills with us. I find that quite absurd. Although there are no stupid jobs, forcing these people, at times, to become cheap labour is appalling.
Ms. Madhany, you are surely aware that Canadian programs exist. In 2009, the pan-Canadian framework for the assessment and recognition of foreign qualifications was established. In 2010, the foreign credential recognition program was launched. In 2022, in order to promote and expand the latter program, the government invested $115 million over five years. Its goal was to help 11,000 health professionals. This year, the government has again allocated money for this purpose in the budget.
Is it effective? How did we end up in this situation? Are we helping these 11,000 people or not?
Managing Director, Canada and Deputy Executive Director, World Education Services
It has been an interesting conversation so far. The issue.... As I said, at World Education Services the recommendation we're making is that the federal government has a central role to play in coordinating a pan-Canadian workforce strategy. We have to link immigration to credential recognition and to labour market planning.
The issue at hand right now is that the federal government has the responsibility for selecting and recruiting immigrants, who come in assuming that they can practise. An individual comes to a particular province, and once they come to the province, the province has its own criteria. You've just heard about what has happened recently with doctors. Also, the licensing bodies have different processes. What you end up with is individuals who come in with an assumption that they are able to work because they have points for immigration purposes. They come to a province and then they start shopping, and they lose their relevancy.
Once again, we say that the best way to deal with this—
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier
You're over the time. If you could, just summarize very quickly.
Managing Director, Canada and Deputy Executive Director, World Education Services
Sure. A coordinating pan-Canadian workforce strategy is what's required.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier
Thank you.
We'll continue on to our next round.
I'm in the chair today, and I'm going to questions from the chair for the next round for five minutes.
My first question is for Ms. Madhany.
The government announced $97 million to establish the foreign credential recognition action fund. How many internationally trained doctors will this fund actually get licensed and working in Canada?
Managing Director, Canada and Deputy Executive Director, World Education Services
The funding is critical, but what I don't know at this point, because that announcement didn't go into detail, is what the $97 million will do in terms of details. Basically, what we have heard is that it's going to be $97 million to reduce barriers, and it's one ministry at the federal government. What will be great to see are the details of the funding, to see if that's in fact going to reduce barriers. Again, it's critical to get funding, but is it going to reduce barriers so that you don't have the situation where the federal associations are doing something different than the licensing associations?
Chair, I don't have an answer to that, other than that we need more details and that we need to make sure it's a systemic approach. The funding has to be applied strategically.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier
I guess I'll ask the question just for clarity.
The government announced $97 million to establish a foreign credential recognition program. We know there are a host of opportunities in it, but through this fund, how many internationally trained doctors will actually become licensed here and start working in Canada? You're saying that you have not—
Managing Director, Canada and Deputy Executive Director, World Education Services
There are no details in the announcement. It basically says nothing.
Conservative
Managing Director, Canada and Deputy Executive Director, World Education Services
That's correct.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier
How many internationally trained nurses, through the government's foreign credential recognition action fund, will become licensed and start working?