Human Resources Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Caroline Weber]

Sometimes I think that maybe we should be thinking about the visible versus the invisible disabilities, and maybe drawing it that way. It's a delicate issue within the disability community because they have worked very hard to bring themselves together. In terms of policy development, I start to wonder if we shouldn't at least be doing some rough categorization that might get at some of the issues you're trying to raise.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Speaking to our skills shortages—sort of transitioning here a bit—we're facing significant skill shortages right now in Alberta. And maybe you could speak to the efforts we're making to get more people with—and I'll use the word—disabilities, but get more people who are identified with disabilities to have access to the labour market, have access to those jobs, and what steps you're taking to enable people to contribute according to their abilities.

[Caroline Weber]

The opportunities fund allows people to come to a Service Canada centre and self-identify—with no medical requirements or medical certificate—and say, “I'm someone with a disability and I would like some help getting into the labour market.” We do an assessment with them in terms of identifying what their goals and objectives are—Cathy, maybe you can speak more to this. We give them an opportunity to get funding for self-employment. If they want to have their own business, we help them out with some aids or devices if there are particular instruments they need. We help them out with employment if they need supported employment for a little while. There's actually a full range there. It's a small program.

On the side with the provinces and territories, we do contribute $222 million a year across the country to the programs delivered by the provinces. They have a large variety of provinces with different entry requirements sometimes. Generally it's also self-identified and you don't have to be EI-eligible. They also do an assessment and put people on a plan to figure out what's the best way to help them get into the labour market.

Generally speaking, these things are working. A couple of weeks ago there was a piece on the front page of the Calgary Herald above the fold talking about how finally in this boom, people with disabilities are being drawn into the labour market.

I don't know if you want any more information from Service Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have.

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

We'll move to the second round of five minutes.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank our witnesses for appearing before the Committee this afternoon and for taking the time to prepare their presentations.

Do you think additional funding is needed to help people with certain needs? Do you think that would be a good idea?

[Caroline Webber]

In what specific category?

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Well, just generally, based on the information you provided this morning; do you think we could do better, and that we should be able to contribute more, in order to help these people?

[Caroline Webber]

Yes, of course.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I have a question for our witnesses from the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada. Was your Agency affected by an $83 million cut made to human resources management programs in the Public Service of Canada?

[Karen Ellis]

Yes. An announcement to that effect was made yesterday. The figures for the Agency are accurate. However, the policy on the duty to accommodate employees with disabilities working in the Public Service of Canada, which I described to you earlier, is not affected, because every federal department and agency is responsible for identifying and funding whatever measures are required under that policy. So, this does not affect that particular policy.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

We're talking about people who have specific needs, and of course disability benefits under the Canada Pension Plan are one thing. I am from a rural area -- although the situation is not much different elsewhere -- where people need help -- for example, with literacy, and to access the labour market. It's not enough to keep them in the labour market; first of all, they have to be able to access it.

Yesterday, $18 million worth of cuts were announced that will affect the people most in need. To some extent, these are people who may need CPP Disability Benefits. What we do now is sit them in a corner and tell them that although they may be having problems now, we'll make sure they have even more later.

With that in mind, I am thinking in particular of a manual worker with a regular job. He does not receive any benefits or government assistance, but he does have a good salary. For example, it could be a single working father or mother with two or three children who earns $45,000 a year. If that person is not in receipt of any benefits, but is then involved in an accident and no longer has any income, he or she would be eligible for disability benefits under the Canada Pension Plan of $9,100.

[Caroline Weber]

There were cuts yesterday, if I may--

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I agree that yesterday's announcements are not related to that. However, cuts such as the ones made yesterday always affect the most vulnerable members of society. I'm not asking you to comment on that specifically; I am just giving you my own personal opinion.

My point had to do with the $9,100. I'm looking to you for assistance. I know this is not the fault of the people appearing before us today. However, do you personally believe that a father or mother who makes $45,000 a year and has no protection or receives no benefits, because of the nature of their employment, can receive $9,100, continue to pay their debts and be able to get along?

My line of thinking is still the same: let's not do to others what we would not have them do to us. In this case, it seems to me that $9,100 to help people in serious difficulty who certainly did not want to end up that way... We have to remember that not all people working in Canada are protected through other kind of insurance or other employee benefits.

In terms of the two million people considered to have a disability, do you not think it would be a good idea to reassess the circumstances of 291,000 of them who are now receiving benefits, so that they can have a better life, rather than giving them an amount of money that doesn't really give them much of a chance of surviving?

[Cathy Drummond, Director General, Services for People with Disabilities, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

There are two things I want to comment on.

First of all, CPP disability is for people who have been in the labour force and who have become severely disabled. It is an insurance form, and I agree, we're not talking about everybody, out of the two million.

I just want to point out that the issues are not necessarily money with the other people who might be eligible to work, who might have a place in the labour market, who don't now. The barriers are a lot more complex than whether there should be more money. There are barriers in the workplace. Caroline talked a little bit about the inaccessibility for students sometimes in the place they're studying. It's a complex issue to work on the employability of people with disabilities. Money isn't the only answer. I'm speaking from the service delivery point of view because I've been in that line of business. Working with people to bring them in through the opportunities fund or other programs and working with people with disabilities requires a mix of willing employers as well as the skills development and the assistance in looking for work.

[Caroline Weber]

Our job is to make it simple. One thing we can do is raise awareness about the issues, because if we do that, there is a lot to be gained. There we have some survey work that says people are uncomfortable with people with disabilities.

The finance minister has appointed an expert panel to look at a disability savings plan for people with severely disabled children. That goes to some of Ms. Brown's comments, in terms of addressing some of the income issues. There has also been some talk about a kind of working income tax benefit, so there may be some opportunities there for people with disabilities.

There are a variety of things we could be talking about. Long-term disability insurance for people who have never worked might be a solution, might be another way to approach some of that population.

I do think you're in an environment in which people are talking about these issues now, and I think there is concerted interest and effort to take on some of these issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have.

Mr. Lessard is next, for five minutes.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Opportunities Fund for Persons With Disabilities was created in 1997 -- you mentioned that earlier -- and seems to work relatively well. Is that correct?

[Caroline Webber]

Yes. We have results of assessments showing that the program works very well, according to standards for programs of this type.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Can you tell us how many people have been able to enter the labour market specifically as a result of this program?

[Caroline Webber]

We have about 5,500 clients per year, and 30 or 35 of them secure employment.

There are 1,500.... Actually, my problem is I'm doing the math in my head. Maybe 1,500 or 2,000 people each year find employment through the opportunities fund.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Has that number fluctuated since 1997 or is it always pretty well the same number year after year?

[Caroline Weber]

It's been actually increasing, because our ability to run this program has improved over time. The performance wasn't very different from what it is now, but we've been doing a much better job of actually using all the funds and getting it out to many individuals. What's been increasing is the number of people we've been reaching.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I'm just wondering: a $30 million budget was established in 1997, and it has stayed the same. Was that because too much money was allocated initially?

[Caroline Weber]

It's not that it was too much money; it was more that we didn't have the systems in place to be able to deliver the programs. It took us a few years. Perhaps because it took us a few years, people thought that perhaps we didn't need the money, but we are using all of those funds now.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

The reality in 2006 is that you have new needs. Also, staff is included in that. Do you think $30 million is enough?